Hoofball

[Rampage]

On 17/02/2021 at 13:11, derbydaz22 said:

I think we are due a bit of luck at the moment as we had nothing but bad luck and poor decisions from the officials in spades earlier in the season.

We will play a rearguard action and get a couple of breakaway chances from which we may score. Free kicks and corners may get us a goal or two against the run of play.

[Archied]

On 17/02/2021 at 14:05, rynny said:

In your opinion. I don't think Rooney wanted to play like we did last night, he was rather unhappy with our performance. 

People don’t put enough blame on the players in these situations, when the team were knocking slow square balls around the back with no momentum, movement off the ball , no fast forward motion and giving the ball away with poor poor passing  cocu made it clear that was not how he wanted them to be playing ??‍♂️

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

I am taking the Swansea game, where we played them off the park, as the way Rooney wants us to play.

I suspect he is a realist and understands that to get results (which is the most important thing right now) he needs to mix it up. We can't always set up the way he wants us to and I for one applaud him for having the flexibility to mix it up to pick up points. If Cocu had a bit more of that flexibility he might have lasted longer in the job and we might not have been in such a dire position in the first place.

[BondJovi]

Not sure how you can praise Rooney for mixing it up here(in other games he has gone more direct when needed)when he has quite clearly said his team did not play the way he wanted them to! I am almost certain Rooney has no intention to play hoofball at all. 

Fans were quick to criticise the slow game of Cocu but I thought he was quite clear that he wanted his team to play quicker and take more risks. In the games we did that, we looked good. Being brave on the ball was something he said repeatedly. Rooney said the same thing after the last game. 

I agree that players have to take more responsibility for performances. Have said that all season. They have done more of that under Rooney so hopefully Wycombe was just a blip.

[RamNut]

I have learned to appreciate what Brian clough was talking about when he said he was an idealist, and “believed in fairies at the bottom of the garden”. It was his strange way of saying that he believed you can win by playing football the right way. On the ground with purpose and crisp passing. Etc etc. 

that’s the football I grew up watching. I’m really not that interested in hoof ball or backwards passing or all the other perverse variants. I also don’t believe you can tell a team to play this way one way this week, and another way next week, etc etc. The players need to settle into a group, a shape, and a way of playing. They need to get into - what Peter Taylor called - good habits. 

we have too much twaddle coming from the sidelines. Too many folk trying to justify their existence by dreaming up different strategies for every game. You may achieve short term success with that, but at the cost of developing the team and the players. By all means rotate the squad when we need to rest someone or we have fatigue or injuries but stick to the plan.

It’s not rocket science.
 

[Ruud Aralliss]

Lots of posters backed the style of play in the last couple of matches, some called it hoofball, others deemed it a necessary evil as the points mattered more and we can only play this way against this type of opponent, some were outraged that the quality of football was even questioned asking why some can’t just enjoy the win.

All this is fine and whatever your stance doesn’t really matter now.  I’m quite exited about tonight’s game and hope we can play the sort of football that played Swansea off the park.  I hope we still have this in our locker and hope this wasn’t too reliant on Bielik controlling the midfield.

WR said after Middlesbrough we went more direct as he thought that Boro would look to control the midfield.  My concern is that most of the better teams will also do this.  So by that logic we will go direct against the better teams to negate a losing battle in midfield and go direct against the poorer teams to fight hoofball with hoofball.  
Or am I completely off track with my train of thought ?

[SamUltraRam]

Rooney has definitely been shown to be versatile based on the opponent

Yes, direct against Boro & Wycombe but clever in the wins over Swansea & Bournemouth were he identified their attacking/overlapping full backs as the threat - & countered it expertly

Tonight could be interesting as despite Watford's league position, they don't usually play all out attacking football

Prediction - our first draw since mid December, 0-0 or 1-1 - & i'll take that

[IslandExile]

After tonight's game against Watford.....

Yeah we lost. All the more frustrating because of the wrong decision to disallow the goal in the first half.

But that was much better, wasn't it?

That's how we want Derby to play.

Sure, Watford looked really sharp in the first half hour. Good players, good side. After that, though, Derby were the better team.

Far more pleasing on the eye.

But I suppose that doesn't matter to you folks who think it's only the result that matters. Ah well.

COYR ?

[FlyBritishMidland]

Yes, a better performance.  As lucky as we might have been in the week we were a bit unlucky tonight.  I think it just comes down to having the confidence in their own ability to do that consistently.  Rooney has that faith in them, they need to have it themselves which isn’t always easy.

[Tyler Durden]

6 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

But I suppose that doesn't matter to you folks who think it's only the result that matters. Ah well.

COYR ?

It is the results that matter this season unfortunately anyway because of the enormous hole Cocu dug for us and you'd be foolhardy to ignore that until we're mathematically safe from the drop.

[IslandExile]

7 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It is the results that matter this season unfortunately anyway because of the enormous hole Cocu dug for us and you'd be foolhardy to ignore that until we're mathematically safe from the drop.

I'm not arguing that results aren't important. Indeed, I would argue that they're important every season.

What I am arguing, and @RamNut has expressed it better than me, is that you can still get good results while attempting to play good football - of which we are capable.

It wasn't a criticism of Rooney either. He was even more critical than me about the performance against Wycombe.

People seem to be saying Rooney has had to resort to the tactics we saw earlier in the week. I don't think they were his intended tactics - it was clear from his interview, that was not the style of play he had wanted.

[FlyBritishMidland]

I think when he first took sole charge it was about stability, getting a few wins (however we may get them) and getting out of the position we found ourselves in.  Now he wants a bit more and wants good football to match the results.  Nothing wrong with that, he’s a winner, but you need the base to start from, which we have, or are getting close to.  His interview on Tuesday was spot on - “they need to have the belief in themselves that I do”.  Brilliant.  As I said then, a bit more of a gap, a bit more confidence and the football will come.

[Asanovic70]

On 19/02/2021 at 11:03, RamNut said:

I have learned to appreciate what Brian clough was talking about when he said he was an idealist, and “believed in fairies at the bottom of the garden”. It was his strange way of saying that he believed you can win by playing football the right way. On the ground with purpose and crisp passing. Etc etc. 

that’s the football I grew up watching. I’m really not that interested in hoof ball or backwards passing or all the other perverse variants. I also don’t believe you can tell a team to play this way one way this week, and another way next week, etc etc. The players need to settle into a group, a shape, and a way of playing. They need to get into - what Peter Taylor called - good habits. 

we have too much twaddle coming from the sidelines. Too many folk trying to justify their existence by dreaming up different strategies for every game. You may achieve short term success with that, but at the cost of developing the team and the players. By all means rotate the squad when we need to rest someone or we have fatigue or injuries but stick to the plan.

It’s not rocket science.

 

If I may say so, I think you're also prone to (nostalgic) twaddle.  In relation to aesthetics (style) & cheating, they have always existed in football, be it  pragmatism on the pitch or off-field in terms of tapping up players (Clough & Terry Curran). Wycombe & Rotherham are sides who play direct  & impose themselves on opponents, not letting them play. Sometimes it is about winning the physical battle first before you can play, as I remember Nigel Clough describing a Burton win at Millwall (Championship). 

I did not experience the Clough years, but going on what Duncan Hamilton has written & Clough's own testimony about his time as a manager, he was prone to the pragmatic as well, i.e. the tackles made on Keegan early in the 1980 European Cup final leading to his subdued performance. His teams had steel as well as style, as did most sides during his prime as a manager.

If you read Duncan Hamilton's excellent biography of Clough, you'll discover that the end of his great managerial career was not only sadly blighted by alcoholism, but by the fact that he became out of date (once the fresh faced pioneer of the late 60s), refusing to analyze the opposition and simply sending his sides out without any tactical insight whatsoever into their rivals' strengths and weaknesses, the formations they used.  In addition, Hamilton expresses the view that he felt Clough made a mistake not going out on the pitch before extra time in the '91 FA Cup final. Instead, he simply chose to ignore the players.

Clough espoused the right things, but he was also pragmatic. Look at the 2nd leg 0-0 draw at Anfield in the European Cup, shown recently on that ITV series 'When English Clubs ruled Europe'. The ex-Liverpool players used a phrase associated with the Portuguese Jack Dee, 'Forest parked the bus.' If that wasn't pragmatic, I don't know what isn't. Principles sometimes have to be sacrificed to get things done.

Do I want us to win and win with style? Of course I do. But if winning ugly means staying up, which is by no means assured yet, then I accept it out of expediency. 

I agree that you can overload players, and people, with too much information, but you do need to adopt different strategies in  the Championship because of the array of different styles/formations. Against Watford, we went with one up front.  You could argue that Cocu tried sticking to a plan of sorts & look what happened. We were the most pedestrian, predictable side in the division as its most possession-based. It was folly to simply think you can impose your will on others & change something like he was some kind of EFL version of  Guardiola.

@FlyBritishMidlandprobably summed it best. Pragmatism first and then the football will come if we can sort out the off-field issues (takeover) and allow the manager a budget & perhaps the opportunity to bring in more quality esp. in midfield where we have lacked a genuine play-maker. Bielik showed glimpses regarding vision whilst Hughes is perhaps the last genuine play-maker we've had. 

This season has had so/too many variables, out of our control: the pandemic itself (Rosenior went down with it), leading to an abnormal situation such as a compressed schedule, two games a week which obviously affects players' fitness & the quality of overall football; an injury to a key midfielder disrupting a promising unit; a protracted takeover that looks ill-fated; the Pride Park pitch (not conducive to fluent football); the nature of the division itself; the situation in which we find ourselves, the nature/character of the squad; Jozwiak having to adapt to a new league (IMO he is deserving of patience as it was given to Bielik by others); a youthful squad who will benefit from this season's experience. 

The hope is that we can progress, like we did after '03-'04, and then challenge the season after.

[nogbad van 50]

14 minutes ago, Asanovic70 said:

 

If I may say so, I think you're also prone to (nostalgic) twaddle.  In relation to aesthetics (style) & cheating, they have always existed in football, be it  pragmatism on the pitch or off-field in terms of tapping up players (Clough & Terry Curran). Wycombe & Rotherham are sides who play direct  & impose themselves on opponents, not letting them play. Sometimes it is about winning the physical battle first before you can play, as I remember Nigel Clough describing a Burton win at Millwall (Championship). 

I did not experience the Clough years, but going on what Duncan Hamilton has written & Clough's own testimony about his time as a manager, he was prone to the pragmatic as well, i.e. the tackles made on Keegan early in the 1980 European Cup final leading to his subdued performance. His teams had steel as well as style, as did most sides during his prime as a manager.

If you read Duncan Hamilton's excellent biography of Clough, you'll discover that the end of his great managerial career was not only sadly blighted by alcoholism, but by the fact that he became out of date (once the fresh faced pioneer of the late 60s), refusing to analyze the opposition and simply sending his sides out without any tactical insight whatsoever into their rivals' strengths and weaknesses, the formations they used.  In addition, Hamilton expresses the view that he felt Clough made a mistake not going out on the pitch before extra time in the '91 FA Cup final. Instead, he simply chose to ignore the players.

Clough espoused the right things, but he was also pragmatic. Look at the 2nd leg 0-0 draw at Anfield in the European Cup, shown recently on that ITV series 'When English Clubs ruled Europe'. The ex-Liverpool players used a phrase associated with the Portuguese Jack Dee, 'Forest parked the bus.' If that wasn't pragmatic, I don't know what isn't. Principles sometimes have to be sacrificed to get things done.

Do I want us to win and win with style? Of course I do. But if winning ugly means staying up, which is by no means assured yet, then I accept it out of expediency. 

I agree that you can overload players, and people, with too much information, but you do need to adopt different strategies in  the Championship because of the array of different styles/formations. Against Watford, we went with one up front.  You could argue that Cocu tried sticking to a plan of sorts & look what happened. We were the most pedestrian, predictable side in the division as its most possession-based. It was folly to simply think you can impose your will on others & change something like he was some kind of EFL version of  Guardiola.

@FlyBritishMidlandprobably summed it best. Pragmatism first and then the football will come if we can sort out the off-field issues (takeover) and allow the manager a budget & perhaps the opportunity to bring in more quality esp. in midfield where we have lacked a genuine play-maker. Bielik showed glimpses regarding vision whilst Hughes is perhaps the last genuine play-maker we've had. 

This season has had so/too many variables, out of our control: the pandemic itself (Rosenior went down with it), leading to an abnormal situation such as a compressed schedule, two games a week which obviously affects players' fitness & the quality of overall football; an injury to a key midfielder disrupting a promising unit; a protracted takeover that looks ill-fated; the Pride Park pitch (not conducive to fluent football); the nature of the division itself; the situation in which we find ourselves, the nature/character of the squad; Jozwiak having to adapt to a new league (IMO he is deserving of patience as it was given to Bielik by others); a youthful squad who will benefit from this season's experience. 

The hope is that we can progress, like we did after '03-'04, and then challenge the season after.

One of the best posts I’ve read on here!?

[RamNut]

23 minutes ago, Asanovic70 said:

 

If I may say so, I think you're also prone to (nostalgic) twaddle.  In relation to aesthetics (style) & cheating, they have always existed in football, be it  pragmatism on the pitch or off-field in terms of tapping up players (Clough & Terry Curran). Wycombe & Rotherham are sides who play direct  & impose themselves on opponents, not letting them play. Sometimes it is about winning the physical battle first before you can play, as I remember Nigel Clough describing a Burton win at Millwall (Championship). 

I did not experience the Clough years, but going on what Duncan Hamilton has written & Clough's own testimony about his time as a manager, he was prone to the pragmatic as well, i.e. the tackles made on Keegan early in the 1980 European Cup final leading to his subdued performance. His teams had steel as well as style, as did most sides during his prime as a manager.

If you read Duncan Hamilton's excellent biography of Clough, you'll discover that the end of his great managerial career was not only sadly blighted by alcoholism, but by the fact that he became out of date (once the fresh faced pioneer of the late 60s), refusing to analyze the opposition and simply sending his sides out without any tactical insight whatsoever into their rivals' strengths and weaknesses, the formations they used.  In addition, Hamilton expresses the view that he felt Clough made a mistake not going out on the pitch before extra time in the '91 FA Cup final. Instead, he simply chose to ignore the players.

Clough espoused the right things, but he was also pragmatic. Look at the 2nd leg 0-0 draw at Anfield in the European Cup, shown recently on that ITV series 'When English Clubs ruled Europe'. The ex-Liverpool players used a phrase associated with the Portuguese Jack Dee, 'Forest parked the bus.' If that wasn't pragmatic, I don't know what isn't. Principles sometimes have to be sacrificed to get things done.

Do I want us to win and win with style? Of course I do. But if winning ugly means staying up, which is by no means assured yet, then I accept it out of expediency. 

I agree that you can overload players, and people, with too much information, but you do need to adopt different strategies in  the Championship because of the array of different styles/formations. Against Watford, we went with one up front.  You could argue that Cocu tried sticking to a plan of sorts & look what happened. We were the most pedestrian, predictable side in the division as its most possession-based. It was folly to simply think you can impose your will on others & change something like he was some kind of EFL version of  Guardiola.

@FlyBritishMidlandprobably summed it best. Pragmatism first and then the football will come if we can sort out the off-field issues (takeover) and allow the manager a budget & perhaps the opportunity to bring in more quality esp. in midfield where we have lacked a genuine play-maker. Bielik showed glimpses regarding vision whilst Hughes is perhaps the last genuine play-maker we've had. 

This season has had so/too many variables, out of our control: the pandemic itself (Rosenior went down with it), leading to an abnormal situation such as a compressed schedule, two games a week which obviously affects players' fitness & the quality of overall football; an injury to a key midfielder disrupting a promising unit; a protracted takeover that looks ill-fated; the Pride Park pitch (not conducive to fluent football); the nature of the division itself; the situation in which we find ourselves, the nature/character of the squad; Jozwiak having to adapt to a new league (IMO he is deserving of patience as it was given to Bielik by others); a youthful squad who will benefit from this season's experience. 

The hope is that we can progress, like we did after '03-'04, and then challenge the season after.

Stick to watching crap then ?

[RoyMac5]

37 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Stick to watching crap then ?

As long as we're winning it'll do in this League. ?

[Van der MoodHoover]

21 hours ago, IslandExile said:

After tonight's game against Watford.....

Yeah we lost. All the more frustrating because of the wrong decision to disallow the goal in the first half.

But that was much better, wasn't it?

That's how we want Derby to play.

Sure, Watford looked really sharp in the first half hour. Good players, good side. After that, though, Derby were the better team.

Far more pleasing on the eye.

But I suppose that doesn't matter to you folks who think it's only the result that matters. Ah well.

COYR ?

Whilst the result was disappointing and I was frustrated with our performance in the first half hour, I will admit that its th first time I can remember this season that we fell behind and IMPROVED, rather than petering out further and looking clueless.

So some definite positives for me in that.

[Ruud Aralliss]

We have somehow managed to create another divide.  In a more simplistic era it was happy clappers v wrist slashers. 
Halcyon days ?

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

Stick to watching crap then ?

Cocu football was indeed crap.

Rooneys not too bad in comparison with last 10y average I would say.

If people only want to only watch guaranteed amazing footy then unfortunately they will have to “unfollow” Derby and support some prem side.

[Asanovic70]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

Stick to watching crap then ?

As articulate a response as the hoof-ball, you're so critical of.

As a football snob, I bet you'd go around in a yellow cravat on matchdays.