Fitness culture, injuries & winning

[Ken Tram]

I'm quite sensitive about knee injuries, because I had lots of knee injuries as a child, and had surgery on both knees.

Very painful. Excruciating, one might say! (The link between excruciating and anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injuries is an unhappy coincidence.)

Poor Krystian Bielik, and the other injured players (and fans). I wouldn't even wish it on a Forest player!*

I think that there is a debate to be had about the fitness culture in football - both injury prevention and fitness levels - and whether or not clubs (and players) could do more (or do things differently).

And, therefore, perhaps fitness is an area that could be a possible opportunity for Derby to get an edge over other clubs.

* I might continue to make an exception for the Collymore chant! I'm only human!

[Ken Tram]

For my tuppence worth, I often feel uncomfortable when I see players doing a cursory warm-up or stretch. I only see a glimpse of what they do, but it doesn't seem to be done very professionally by many players.

My gut feeling is that a significant number of injuries could be avoided.

I bet that there are some teams that get fewer injuries, and it would be interesting to see if they have a different ethos to other teams.

I know that track athletes run in straight lines (and slight curves!), but even so, they seem to take warming-up and stretching far more seriously. (I may be wrong, but it's how it appears to me.)

How many teams get their players doing ballet and yoga, and 'non-macho' strengthening techniques?

[Ken Tram]

I think that 'the game' could do a lot more to reduce injures, and I think that accelerating a change in culture among players and coaches could help a lot.

So many players get cramp, especially during extra time in cup matches, which must be a sign that players are reaching their limits. Why do we still use extra time if we regularly see players getting injured?

Why do we not have mid-half drink breaks during every game? Why do some players not take a drink, even when they're available - say, during an injury stoppage?

The additional substitute limit seemed like a good step - which I think was linked to fitness levels. But maybe it has not helped too much, especially as some teams do not feel able to make use of them all, while maintaining their team's structure on the pitch. As we know, some managers struggle to even use a more traditional two substitutions.

Why are pitches not in a better condition! But, even when they are, why do a handful of staff only replace divots to help the home side at half time?

[Ken Tram]

19 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

* I might continue to make an exception for the Collymore chant! I'm only human!

Link to: Collymore chant

[Nookiebear1]

Its an interesting point. We do seem to have our fair share of injuries. Im not saying we have more than any other club so dont jump down my throat. 

After listening to a few podcasts of the players especially the George Thorne one it does make me wonder if as a club we actually do any yoga based rehab? Or something similar (i dont know im not an expert) but if not then why not? 

[oldtimeram]

Very few players in the 1960s and 70s had cruciate ligaments ?

[RamNut]

The pre-season boot camp in Austria, playing a Russian team on a non-league pitch seemed like a bad idea at the time. Ultimately though George has said he had a genetic weakness in his ACL so maybe the injury was bound to happen at some time.
Thorne, Forsyth and Bielik all have a similar height and build. Maybe Bielik is similarly prone. 
ultimately Thorne’s problems were related to poor surgery and inadequate assessment of his rehab. He seems to make perfectly valid criticisms of his after care.

[England Ram]

Interesting points regarding the warm up and exercises. 
Knowing their bodies and legs especially are going to have massive stresses applied to them at un natural angles at times it is imperative that warm ups and exercise does as much as it can to prepare for that. 
 

watching the pre match warm up and the half time subs warm up is laughable sometimes. Laughable in a not funny way. Some players ‘play at’ warming up, stretching and being ready. 
They are all happy to get to the ball work but are not actually doing most of the exercises given to them. 
 

Worrying if this is a carry over from training and if there is no focus on injury prevention then we are likely to continue to have similar injuries. 

[mike93rh]

They're interesting points you raise, but I can't imagine in this day and age at the elite level of a sport the importance of warming up properly isn't known to the coaching/fitness/physio staff

 

 

[Carl Sagan]

We might believe we have more injuries (especially ACLs) because we follow our club more closely. It would be informative to see figures for the 92 and assess it. Surely a sports medicine team has been looking at the question? 

I just googled and found this report saying a club should expect one ACL injury every two years. And once a player has done it there's a 12% chance of having a second ACL tear, but three-quarters of those are the other leg https://www.physioroom.com/info/acl-knee-injury-players-who-overcame-it/#:~:text=With ACL injuries being so,1 every 2 seasons%2Fyears.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

2 hours ago, RamNut said:

Thorne, Forsyth and Bielik all have a similar height and build. Maybe Bielik is similarly prone. 

I've often wondered about this, especially in regard to Forsyth and Bielik. Both very lanky, rangy players.

It's far too small of a sample size to come to a conclusion, but I do wonder whether those sorts of players are particularly susceptible.

[BIllyD]

There was a good article below that's worth a read. Given the number of games in quick succession it would hold up at the moment.

 

https://www.physioroom.com/research/fatigue_knee_ligaments_1.php

[RadioactiveWaste]

I think there's something in the fact these days the physical side of the game is really pushing the limits of what they players bodie's can do in terms of fitness?

 

[Ram-Alf]

2 hours ago, oldtimeram said:

Very few players in the 1960s and 70s had cruciate ligaments ?

And the metatarsal bone, Thank heaven for David Beckham ?

As for ACL injuries and the like, Has the improvement of pitches anything to do with this, Synthetic grass and the like, But then you have other sports ie Tennis playing on much harder surfaces.

Players are far fitter today than in yesteryear, Bobby Charlton was a renowned smoker but didn't stop him from being the footballer he was, Are footballers studs getting longer?, I played the game with players who would put Rugby studs on their boots or even play in Rugby boots to protect their ankles, As for the warm up and warm down it's something that the physio and trainers have developed over the years in the hope this would help a player, Yes some aren't as enthusiastic as some but it gives a little entertainment to some.

Clubs today will have the "state of the art" equipment to asses the players, But you can't replicate a challenge, Twist, Fall, Jar, Stamp, All very difficult to know what where when and how these things could be stopped.

I guess it could be something to do with a players body ya know just like referees eyesight and those fools who look at VAR and still can't get it right...bugger off topic?

Steve Austin alone could be the person witht he answer.

[Tyler Durden]

It just puts into perspective all of the years Keogh played for us injury free then his ultimate demise was brought about not by an injury on the football field but getting into someone's car. 

[CBRammette]

I would expect the sports and exercise medicine side of things practised by the elite would extend down into the EFL. It extends to my sons' amateur sports. Our club doctor seems to have the expected experience on his bio. Jono was correct the other day in saying these will always happen in a contact game whatever you do. Or as Tyler says you could just get in a car with the wrong driver

[BathRam72]

3 hours ago, oldtimeram said:

Very few players in the 1960s and 70s had cruciate ligaments ?

Blimey, how on earth did they walk let alone run?

[oldtimeram]

4 hours ago, BathRam72 said:

Blimey, how on earth did they walk let alone run?

Arrh, but they had cartilages in those days instead!

[Stive Pesley]

4 hours ago, James Pond said:

And the metatarsal bone, Thank heaven for David Beckham ?

I'm told that since the rise to prominence of metatarsal injuries (in the early 2000s?) that boots are now designed and manufactured differently with a design that protects the metatarsal bones more effectively - hence we see less of these now.  It was a design flaw in the boots of that era that led to an increase in foot bone injuries

So what of cruciate ligaments? Can players with know weakness in their knees (which can surely be scanned for these days) wear knee supports that protect against over extension?

[Phoenix]

9 hours ago, Ken Tram said:

For my tuppence worth, I often feel uncomfortable when I see players doing a cursory warm-up or stretch. I only see a glimpse of what they do, but it doesn't seem to be done very professionally by many players.

My gut feeling is that a significant number of injuries could be avoided.

I bet that there are some teams that get fewer injuries, and it would be interesting to see if they have a different ethos to other teams.

I know that track athletes run in straight lines (and slight curves!), but even so, they seem to take warming-up and stretching far more seriously. (I may be wrong, but it's how it appears to me.)

How many teams get their players doing ballet and yoga, and 'non-macho' strengthening techniques?

Two interesting points there.

Track athletes. There was a Ghanaian international sprinter named Ernie Obeng. He spent a lot of time in England and used to train on the tartan track at Loughborough. A couple of my mates in Charnwood Athletic (based at Loughborough Uni) got wind of the fact that he was going to be training one Sunday morning so they went along to watch. After 20 minutes they got bored, and left as he was still doing his stretching.

Ballet. Ron Greenwood once got a Ballet star to go along to the 'ammers, to put them through some exercises, as he thought it would make them more supple. Not sure it went down well but the idea was right.