Reasons why we are where we are .

[MuespachRam]

31 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Well I think you have to look to what gone wrong with Lawrence and how it’s affected Derby over his time with the club. In my opinion I think Rowett bought him without much of a plan of what he wanted Lawrence to do, because Lawrence’s stand out year at Ipswich was by being able to do what was Vydra’s role of picking the gaps around the edges of the box. So he ended up having a dodgy year there, then Lampard really put his focus into Mount and Wilson which left him out of sorts. I thought at times under Cocu we started to see the best of Lawrence because he was given a more influential role but obviously it’s gone by the way side now.

Some of its Lawrence’s fault ofcourse, he didn’t maybe push himself to stand out but I think in the key years of his development he wasn’t treated right at that time. I’d argue it’s similar with Wisdom. That in key seasons he didn’t play enough and now we have a player who looks good most of the time but maybe doesn’t have the defensive nous that comes with game experience.

you know that he is 27 years old don't you..? He isn't a kid and I would argue has more than likely reached the pinnacle of his glistening career.....

[The Key Club King]

Owner employs a manager, turns out to be a not very good manager despite being backed financially.

Owner sacks manager.

Owner employs manager, turns out to be a not very good manager despite being backed financially.

Owner sacks manager.

Repeat.

 

Mel cannot spot a good manager. This is not really his fault as every club has employed managers that turned out to be not as good as they think. It's almost pot luck and unfortunately the manager is the single biggest factor in making a club successfull. With continued backing usually a wealthy owner will pick a good manager eventually but Mel has not had that (yet). 

Them's the vagaries. 

[TuffLuff]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

When Lawrence gets a mention regarding his role in the side I think this idea of development always goes seems to go with it .  When he came here he'd had about 7 years at Mau Utd. 4 years at Leicester and about 4 loans including a full season at Ipswich.  He couldn't have had any more development.   He was 24 when we got him. At some point you have to conclude we overspent on him and he was never going to replace Vydra because Vydra was just a lot better. 

Regarding Wisdom- when we signed him on loan he'd played a fair few first team games for Liverpool and was captaining England U21s.  When he came back Liverpool had loaned him to two premier league teams where he hadn't played, followed by a spell in Austria.  The only team interested when we paid a fair size fee were Celtic.  3 years before we couldn't have signed him.   We just signed a player who was not as confident as the original incarnation. 

Oh yeah I’d agree with you on all this, I’m not talking about development in a way that they were young, inexperienced kids. I’m saying they were 23,24 (or around that) where it’s a key age to really find your position and your consistency playing it and they both spent a couple of years doing a role for the side or on the bench and it didn’t help them. Yes, you can argue that they didn’t do enough to warrent the role they wanted but now they are 27,28 and are still asking the same questions about where their best position is never mind anything else.

I think something similar happened with Hendrick with his later role at Derby plus how Burnley and Ireland used him. By plugging in gaps as a DM that age he’s never really reached his potential either.

@MuespachRam☝️

[Chris_Martin]

On 17/01/2021 at 15:26, DCFClks said:

Since the 13/14 season these are the only permanent transfers I'd say were successful

Bielik, Vydra, Carson, Davies, Ince and Christie. That's six successful transfers in over six years.

In the one transfer window before the 13/14 season we signed Martin, Forsyth, Russell, Eustace and Grant

Depends what you mean by succesful to be honest.

I would say Bielik has only really shown his worth for a few games this season does that make him a success? I would say it probably does as we can see the potential is very high. 

Vydra i am not sure if he was a success or not really. We sold him on for good profit, but he only really had that one good season for us. Top scorer that year but a lot of his goals were penalty, his overall play was good in moments but not brilliant and not that consistent. Towards the end of that season he wasn't even first choice striker anymore. 

Carson I would agree was a success based on his performances and consistency, also got him in on a free transfer too

Davies. Same as Carson, Plus great leader and professional. Success

Ince I am not so sure. Was very good for us on loan but after we signed him permanently was never quite as good my opinion. Sold on for good profit but does that make it a success?

Christie. We helped develop him into a good player. Bought cheap, sold on for profit when he wanted to leave. Probably a small successful transfer. 

@DCFClkswould you not say these were a success compared to those above then? 

Jozwiak? Shinnie? Marshall? Johnson? Thorne?  

[MuespachRam]

4 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

Depends what you mean by succesful to be honest.

I would say Bielik has only really shown his worth for a few games this season does that make him a success? I would say it probably does as we can see the potential is very high. 

Vydra i am not sure if he was a success or not really. We sold him on for good profit, but he only really had that one good season for us. Top scorer that year but a lot of his goals were penalty, his overall play was good in moments but not brilliant and not that consistent. Towards the end of that season he wasn't even first choice striker anymore. 

Carson I would agree was a success based on his performances and consistency, also got him in on a free transfer too

Davies. Same as Carson, Plus great leader and professional. Success

Ince I am not so sure. Was very good for us on loan but after we signed him permanently was never quite as good my opinion. Sold on for good profit but does that make it a success?

Christie. We helped develop him into a good player. Bought cheap, sold on for profit when he wanted to leave. Probably a small successful transfer. 

@DCFClkswould you not say these were a success compared to those above then? 

Jozwiak? Shinnie? Marshall? Johnson? Thorne?  

How is Jozwiak a success if Vydra isnt....!?!

Thorne...? Shinnie? Johnson?...had 10 good games between them.

Marshall is the only one that has been a "success".

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

44 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Oh yeah I’d agree with you on all this, I’m not talking about development in a way that they were young, inexperienced kids. I’m saying they were 23,24 (or around that) where it’s a key age to really find your position and your consistency playing it and they both spent a couple of years doing a role for the side or on the bench and it didn’t help them. Yes, you can argue that they didn’t do enough to warrent the role they wanted but now they are 27,28 and are still asking the same questions about where their best position is never mind anything else.

I think something similar happened with Hendrick with his later role at Derby plus how Burnley and Ireland used him. By plugging in gaps as a DM that age he’s never really reached his potential either.

@MuespachRam☝️

Bit of a shame that we lost Hendrick.  He was particularly wasted by Clement who took most of his opportunity as an attacking midfielder away to accommodate Butterfield.  Terrible waste of a midfielder as good with both feet who had a much better engine . We sold him at the best time when he had such a good euros but we would have been better off keeping him in the long run.  Once a team in the division above comes in though you rarely have the same player if you keep hold of them.

[hughesy 1984]

10 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

Depends what you mean by succesful to be honest.

I would say Bielik has only really shown his worth for a few games this season does that make him a success? I would say it probably does as we can see the potential is very high. 

Vydra i am not sure if he was a success or not really. We sold him on for good profit, but he only really had that one good season for us. Top scorer that year but a lot of his goals were penalty, his overall play was good in moments but not brilliant and not that consistent. Towards the end of that season he wasn't even first choice striker anymore. 

Carson I would agree was a success based on his performances and consistency, also got him in on a free transfer too

Davies. Same as Carson, Plus great leader and professional. Success

Ince I am not so sure. Was very good for us on loan but after we signed him permanently was never quite as good my opinion. Sold on for good profit but does that make it a success?

Christie. We helped develop him into a good player. Bought cheap, sold on for profit when he wanted to leave. Probably a small successful transfer. 

@DCFClkswould you not say these were a success compared to those above then? 

Jozwiak? Shinnie? Marshall? Johnson? Thorne?  

So you are not sure if the 2 x players on the above list were a success. Despite them scoring the most goals and getting sold on for hefty profit???? 
 

Why wouldn’t you say Ince & Vydra were successful? Both scored a lot of goals, won a lot of games and earned us lots of money 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

5 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

How is Jozwiak a success if Vydra isnt....!?!

Thorne...? Shinnie? Johnson?...had 10 good games between them.

Marshall is the only one that has been a "success".

Come on.  Thorne was a great player not just 13/14 but in his forgotten season 15/16 . No broken leg against Ipswich we have too much for both those teams in the playoffs. After that - just bad luck and the add ons that stopped his upward trajectory.

[MuespachRam]

4 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Bit of a shame that we lost Hendrick.  He was particularly wasted by Clement who took most of his opportunity as an attacking midfielder away to accommodate Butterfield.  Terrible waste of a midfielder as good with both feet who had a much better engine . We sold him at the best time when he had such a good euros but we would have been better off keeping him in the long run.  Once a team in the division above comes in though you rarely have the same player if you keep hold of them.

There was no way we could have kept him.....like you say not after the Euros he had.... the biggest shame is that ALL of this rubbish would have been avoided if we had beat QPR....ALL of it...

[DCFC Kicks]

1 minute ago, Chris_Martin said:

Depends what you mean by succesful to be honest.

I would say Bielik has only really shown his worth for a few games this season does that make him a success? I would say it probably does as we can see the potential is very high. 

Vydra i am not sure if he was a success or not really. We sold him on for good profit, but he only really had that one good season for us. Top scorer that year but a lot of his goals were penalty, his overall play was good in moments but not brilliant and not that consistent. Towards the end of that season he wasn't even first choice striker anymore. 

Carson I would agree was a success based on his performances and consistency, also got him in on a free transfer too

Davies. Same as Carson, Plus great leader and professional. Success

Ince I am not so sure. Was very good for us on loan but after we signed him permanently was never quite as good my opinion. Sold on for good profit but does that make it a success?

Christie. We helped develop him into a good player. Bought cheap, sold on for profit when he wanted to leave. Probably a small successful transfer. 

@DCFClkswould you not say these were a success compared to those above then? 

Jozwiak? Shinnie? Marshall? Johnson? Thorne?  

I would say a transfer is successful if you sell for more than you paid. Jozwiak? probably but too early to say yet. Marshall, Shinnie probably yes. Johnson - No, think of the comparable players we could have signed for the £6+ Million. He had some good spells but not worth the money. Thorne - unlucky, but still no. 

That would still only be 9 good signings in about 6-7 years. I don't think many of the players signed are bad footballers, the main problem was hiring managers whose playing styles were vastly different from the previous managers, and the left over players not fitting there styles. 

[Chris_Martin]

3 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

How is Jozwiak a success if Vydra isnt....!?!

Thorne...? Shinnie? Johnson?...had 10 good games between them.

Marshall is the only one that has been a "success".

Shinnie - was bought on a free transfer and has been great all season. good leader and professional 

Johnson - I don't think people appreciated him until he was gone and realised what we were missing. Got us through many games

Thorne - Fantastic ability. Had around 1-2 years where he played great for us but then the injuries came back. Shame. Only cost around 2 million though. Remember him running the game against Man Utd in cup.

Jozwiak - I think to beat Southampton to signing an international player like that for around 4 million is great business. He has had some games where he's looked quality and he will only get better. Everyone always says it takes a season to acclimatise to a new culture and league. The potential with him is very high. 

Vydra - I never said he wasn't a success. Just that the number of goals made him look better than his play actually was. 

[Chris_Martin]

10 minutes ago, hughesy 1984 said:

So you are not sure if the 2 x players on the above list were a success. Despite them scoring the most goals and getting sold on for hefty profit???? 
 

Why wouldn’t you say Ince & Vydra were successful? Both scored a lot of goals, won a lot of games and earned us lots of money 

If you class success as being sold for profit and goal tally then by all means it was a success. I was just saying that a lot of Vydra's goals were penalty's which obviously makes him look better than perhaps his overall play was. He would often go through an entire game without contributing anything and then just nick a goal at the end. I'm not saying he wasn't a success but would you honestly pay 8-10 million for him again?? I think we were lucky Burnley took him for the price they did in the end.

 

[DCFC Kicks]

I still place a lot of blame on the hiring of Clement and Pearson (more Pearson) for where we are today. Letting such an inexperienced manager in Clement spend all that money (then sack him undeservedly). Then allow Pearson to wreck all that Mac/Clough had built up.

[MuespachRam]

Just now, Chris_Martin said:

Shinnie - was bought on a free transfer and has been great all season. good leader and professional 

Johnson - I don't think people appreciated him until he was gone and realised what we were missing. Got us through many games

Thorne - Fantastic ability. Had around 1-2 years where he played great for us but then the injuries came back. Shame. Only cost around 2 million though. Remember him running the game against Man Utd in cup.

Jozwiak - I think to beat Southampton to signing an international player like that for around 4 million is great business. He has had some games where he's looked quality and he will only get better. Everyone always says it takes a season to acclimatise to a new culture and league. The potential with him is very high. 

Vydra - I never said he wasn't a success. Just that the number of goals made him look better than his play actually was. 

Shinnie - Has been one of the better players for the last 8 or 9 games, but you do realise he is looking OK (and that is all) in a team that is the lowest they have been since 1986.....and aside from those 2 years in division 3 this is the lowest we have been since 1956 so hardly a great barometer to judge him on.

Johnson - Name 10 good games he had for us in his almost 150 appearances....massive waste of money

Thorne - Played 10 games a year for us....that he did ok in.

Jozwiak - Hasn't had 5 good games for us all season. Getting used to the league is a pathetic excuse...Did it take Stimac a season to get used to the league? nope it took him about 35 minutes.

Vydra - We bought him, he scored loads of goals, he got us into the play offs, we sold him for a profit to a top flight team, what else does he need to do to be a "success" ? 

[MuespachRam]

9 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

If you class success as being sold for profit and goal tally then by all means it was a success. I was just saying that a lot of Vydra's goals were penalty's which obviously makes him look better than perhaps his overall play was. He would often go through an entire game without contributing anything and then just nick a goal at the end. I'm not saying he wasn't a success but would you honestly pay 8-10 million for him again?? I think we were lucky Burnley took him for the price they did in the end.

 

A lot of Vydras goals were penaltys...?!? He scored 22 goals that 2017-18 season...and 6 were penalties, I would say that we would kill for a striker who scored "just" 16 goals a season from open play right now.....

[Brammie Steve]

You've either got it or you ain't.

And the Rams certainly ain't. 

Whatever 'it' is

We ain't got it

And without it

We ain't going nowhere

In an upward direction!

[SKRam]

On 18/01/2021 at 10:24, WhiteHorseRam said:

This is spot on.

I would add that another issue is what seems to be a lack of urgency/determination/venom -

Cocu was going to maker the football all lovely and bring the kids on   .... give him time .... give him time ...

Wayne will be great soon .... give him time ... give him time ...

 

Meanwhile we are averaging less than a point a game.

And I’m Britvic now, I’d like to see some success in readyment for my retirement 

[Chris_Martin]

3 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

Shinnie - Has been one of the better players for the last 8 or 9 games, but you do realise he is looking OK (and that is all) in a team that is the lowest they have been since 1986.....and aside from those 2 years in division 3 this is the lowest we have been since 1956 so hardly a great barometer to judge him on.

Johnson - Name 10 good games he had for us in his almost 150 appearances....massive waste of money

Thorne - Played 10 games a year for us....that he did ok in.

Jozwiak - Hasn't had 5 good games for us all season. Getting used to the league is a pathetic excuse...Did it take Stimac a season to get used to the league? nope it took him about 35 minutes.

Vydra - We bought him, he scored loads of goals, he got us into the play offs, we sold him for a profit to a top flight team, what else does he need to do to be a "success" ? 

Shinnie - Not really sure how this is Shinnie's fault. We're recovering from Cocu's mess. He left us bottom of the League remember. 

Johnson - I can remember many games Johnson did well for us. After getting converted into the CDM role. He added a lot of bite to our play and generally help set the tempo in a lot of games. Was first choice in that position for several different managers, is that a coincidence? 

Thorne - 15/16 season I'm pretty sure Thorne played nearly every game. Don't know how you can say he was only 'ok' 

Jozwiak - There are many many examples of players needing time to adjust to a new league, probably more than if a player settles straight in. 

Vydra - For the last time, i never said he wasn't a success. His goals made him look better than perhaps he was that's all. Think we were lucky to sell him for £15 million to Burnley.  Would you buy him again for 8-10 million?

[MuespachRam]

5 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

Shinnie - Not really sure how this is Shinnie's fault. We're recovering from Cocu's mess. He left us bottom of the League remember. 

Johnson - I can remember many games Johnson did well for us. After getting converted into the CDM role. He added a lot of bite to our play and generally help set the tempo in a lot of games. Was first choice in that position for several different managers, is that a coincidence? 

Thorne - 15/16 season I'm pretty sure Thorne played nearly every game. Don't know how you can say he was only 'ok' 

Jozwiak - There are many many examples of players needing time to adjust to a new league, probably more than if a player settles straight in. 

Vydra - For the last time, i never said he wasn't a success. His goals made him look better than perhaps he was that's all. Think we were lucky to sell him for £15 million to Burnley.  Would you buy him again for 8-10 million?

Shinnie - Was in the team that got us bottom of the league remember...

Johnson - name the games then? I cant think of more than 1.

Thorne - Played 15 games in 5 season for us, no matter how good he was in the other 2 seasons he cant be a success story.

Jozwiak - Players who need time to settle, give me names then and for every one you give me I will give you another 5 that didnt. Class players can play anywhere.

Vydra - Yep I would buy him back for 10 million in a heart beat. Goals made him look better than he was...? What else was he supposed to do for us make the pre match meal? ride a unicycle at half time to entertain the crowd? Scoring goals was his job and he did it very well indeed.

[NottsRam77]

On 17/01/2021 at 15:26, DCFClks said:

Since the 13/14 season these are the only permanent transfers I'd say were successful

Bielik, Vydra, Carson, Davies, Ince and Christie. That's six successful transfers in over six years.

In the one transfer window before the 13/14 season we signed Martin, Forsyth, Russell, Eustace and Grant

don’t worry your not alone 
 

I’ll never stop loving nigel either ? lol