Reasons why we are where we are .

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Nuwtfly said:

Truth is we’ll never know. I’d of loved to have seen it, though. 

How strange he's not yet replicated his potential anywhere else then?

[JayRam1]

1 hour ago, Bearwood Ram said:

Just my opinion. We've not exactly moved forward since he went. We've returned to square one far too often since then. 

Not sure how you can say that really, we’ve been in 2 playoff finals and a play off semi, we should have beat qpr on any other day we would have done! Poor recruitment within the last 3 years has cost us, simple as that. If clough was that great why is he managing in league 2 now? 

[Nuwtfly]

21 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

How strange he's not yet replicated his potential anywhere else then?

Once again, Roy - you quote one small fraction of a wider point and use it to make a completely different one. 

I don't really care what Nigel Clough has done since he left Derby. It has literally nothing to do with the point I was making. All I am saying is that I would have LIKED  to have seen it go well for him here. Who knows whether it would have gone well or not, had he remained and been backed. 

[Topram]

Easy really 

It’s been coming for a while

Losing at Wembley both times.

over spending on average players 

letting Sam Rush do what he wanted

Newcastle turning Stevie macs head(convinced we would of won the league that year)

giving Clement so much money 

Signing Nugent instead of Watkins 

hiring Cocu without being able to back him

letting Martin and Marriott go in the summer with just 1 replacement

letting this takeover rumble on for so long 

Now it’s all come crumbling down into a likely scenario of relegation   

 

[Bob Mash]

Fair enough. My point was we're no further forward now after several managerial changes. Never said he was great just think the sacking set in motion the events that led us to where we are now. Skint. Not liked by other fans and heading for league 1. Again, personal opinion. We all want what's best for the club at the end of the day and if we all agreed it would be a very boring forum. 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Nuwtfly said:

One of the most interesting points PRIDE raises is whether or not we would have “got there in the end” under Clough.

Seems like the players felt we would, or at least that was my reading of the comments made. We were getting (slowly) better, or more technical at least. What could Nigel have done with a big pot of cash to spend? Hmm.

Truth is we’ll never know. I’d of loved to have seen it, though. 

Yes you're right @Nuwtfly I missed quoting the above ridiculous statement with the one line I did. 

He went to Sheff Utd and did what? He's done what where? Yet you think him spending a lot of money here would have been worth seeing? Fair enough! ?

[TuffLuff]

1 hour ago, Nuwtfly said:

Very interesting. I remember finding out he’d been sacked on a bus with a mate of mine. I was absolutely devastated. So shocked. And yet I’d spent the whole of the journey beforehand complaining about him.

I’d like to imagine there’s a universe where Clough didn’t get sacked, but got backed, and we eventually went up. I’m not sure if it was ever going to happen, but it’s nice to dream.

Weirdly I was having a chat this morning with a work colleague (socially distant, waiting for the break in the rain) about loyalty this morning and Derby’s being somewhat misplaced at times. Everyone will look at every case differently and it’s very much hindsight, so I don’t really want to start a debate on each individual case because I think this thread is interesting if people stick to the topic. 
 

But look at this from the players and how many have had automatic contract extensions or long contracts that have been in/out of the first team picture. It’s these contracts that have us no wiggle room when it came to Martin’s contract who was pivotal to Cocu’s plans. Let’s not forget despite how he was treated Martin always came back to Derby, worked hard and wanted to be here. People I’m sure won’t like this but what if we’d shown that bit of faith to Keogh? We might just have that captain/leader figure to help us out of the current mess without needing to spend millions. Short term frustration but a longer term gain. You could make a similar argument with Huddlestone than what I have with Martin. 

This applies to the managers, whether it’s give Clough until January or just holding that nerve with Mclaren. Even Cocu. Again it’s only my opinion but the ones we’ve probably treated the worse are the ones who have had the clubs interests at heart or the player that brought into the club more than others

[TuffLuff]

16 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

I was gonna write something similar to this a while back when Cocu left, but I got a but of flack for saying Derby’s problems ran deeper than Cocu and it wasn’t going to solve a lot so binned it until now. 

Anyway, Derby’s problem has been that we’ve been on a steady decline and we’ve all been letting it happen on the promise that we can have something that was always out of our grasp. I get there’s been a few ‘ups’ but let’s face it, the players got steadily worse and the football got steadily worse until we are now in this position where it all could be a little too late to change anything. 

So if we go onto the reasons, I think you have to look at the top and work down. Mel bought the club at a very good time, Derby were on the way up and with a couple of tweaks here and there they had a squad easily good enough for promotion. I think his plan was that once we were in the Prem, the first team becomes self sustaining because of prem money so you can invest in PP and the academy whilst taking the plaudits.  Obviously as he found out, it’s not at easy as that but his solution was to keep spending and to gamble because that would get his plan on track again until now where he’s ran out of money and ran out of loopholes.

With that poor, short term decisions have been made in terms of management who have themselves made poor, short term decisions in recruitment. 

TL:DR - I’m not sure Mel is a football man, rather than an investment man

*Been umming and ahhing whether to post this or whether it crosses a line so I’ve tried to tone it back. Obviously if it does cross a line then please delete.

Ha, sorry I’ve just gone back and read this and realised it was the one I was going to delete so I could write a better one! Heres one that I wrote that is saying a similar thing but hope is a bit more considered and thought out

—————-
 

To be honest I think you could write a near dissertation on the reasons Derby County are where they are, but I’ll leave the work to Ryan Hills.

I was going to write a long long piece basically pin pointing every reason as to why it’s everyone’s fault, from ownership, managements, players, media and fans but it’s far too long and because everything interlinks I think it’s too hard to write and too hard to follow without being a mess. I could, over a couple of pints, talk it all through but don’t think I could write it without everyone losing interest. I will instead make one point, as carefully as possible, to what I do think is the catalyst for everything that has gone wrong. 

It’s of my opinion, that Morris brought the club at the time he did because he saw the investment opportunities rather than because he wanted to own his boyhood club. Now before I get into this I want to make it clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to do that and if it had worked we would have all been laughing. I’m not coming from a stance of being anti Mel either, but I think being able to stick himself between these two points of view he’s had the benefit of the doubt. My feeling is that Mel bought Derby at a very good time, with his belief being a couple of sly investments and we would get promoted. With this Derby would then see the money the Prem brings with it which would then make the first team self sufficient, so you can sell a couple of players but you’d have enough money to replace and improve. Whilst this was happening he could concentrate on what he actually wanted to do, which was the Pride Park Plaza and Moor Farm. The thinking being he can make a profit on Moor Farm when he sold the club and be able to continue his investments and making his money out of the PP Plaza. Obviously this hasn’t gone to plan but I think the issue has been, rather than maybe thinking like a football chairman and maybe putting your interests on the back burner we have tried short term fixes and gambles to try and get this plan back on track. 

The impact on the club is that it’s brought a very steady decline which has nearly gone unnoticed. Managers who didnt have the clubs best wishes at heart, players who were inconsistent under different regimes and a style of play that slowly worsened. Players were picked off after letting contracts run out and replaced with inexperienced youth players. This was happening why us fans were quite happy to drink the kool-aid because we were so close but never able to achieve promotion and also because we had the belief we were growing one of the countries best academies.

It’s difficult and I’m trying to say what I think in a way that doesn’t throw Mel under the bus, this is guesswork and could all be wrong. But it is my opinion that this is the main reason we are where we are. The ownership saw the club as an investment opportunity, not because he wanted to see himself as the long term chairman of Derby County. Again there is nothing wrong with that, but the pursuit of that plan was not done in the interests of Derby County. The big worry for me is not only that we are now underperforming but we are also overvalued which makes local investment in the future less likely in my eyes.

[Nuwtfly]

34 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes you're right @Nuwtfly I missed quoting the above ridiculous statement with the one line I did. 

He went to Sheff Utd and did what? He's done what where? Yet you think him spending a lot of money here would have been worth seeing? Fair enough! ?

But it’s not a statement...it’s just a question. If you think the posing of that question is ridiculous, then fair enough.

And just to clarify, I didn’t say I thought seeing him spending a lot of money would have been worth seeing. Just that I’d like to have seen him get us promoted.

I liked Nigel and still do. He laid the foundations and did a lot of the hard yards for us. He should get more credit, and a bit more respect, for that. 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

But it’s not a statement...it’s just a question. If you think the posing of that question is ridiculous, then fair enough.

And just to clarify, I didn’t say I thought seeing him spending a lot of money would have been worth seeing. Just that I’d like to have seen him get us promoted.

I liked Nigel and still do. He laid the foundations and did a lot of the hard yards for us. He should get more credit, and a bit more respect, for that. 

I have absolutely NO problem at all agreeing with this.

The rest is just pie-in-the-sky dreaming based on believing in unicorns! ? ?

I'll never forget that 4-4 match after Clough was sacked - you just knew then that everything was going to change.

[TuffLuff]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

Yes, I'd agree with that, although I do think there is a good core support at Derby who will still be around whatever. Doesn't mean we are liking what we are seeing, though.

We can debate forever whether Clough would have done it or not but we can never prove it either way. I think there is only a very small minority actually wished we had stuck with him before the last eighteen months.

That number is now increasing with hindsight. I think a lot of people who are calling Mel out now were more than happy to get on the rollercoaster ride of the last few years.

If you're one of the few, well done for your consistency, but I think most are just reacting to where we are now.

Personally I’ve been up and down on Mel, still am because I don’t think he’s a bad bloke and I think he speaks very well (So I can’t take the well done for consistency!) I guess we are now trying to think more about what his legacy is and I think there’s more questions than answers both about his time in charge and what the future holds. I’ve only really come to my current conclusions what I’ve posted over last night and today after quite a bit of thought, hindsight and maybe adding 2+2 together and getting 5. But it at least makes a bit of sense. 
 

I think in general, in both sides of the argument that fans are quite happy to drink the kool-aid aslong as they believe the club is heading in the right direction. With regards to Morris the wheels have fallen off relatively quickly since the start of 2020 in part for reasons out of the club control. Since then Morris and Derby have run out of short term solutions. But yes most were happy to carry on, me included.

[MuespachRam]

Can’t believe how lightly the players are getting off from all this...

Players like Lawrence have been absolutely stealing a living for years at the club, doing absolutely nothing and completely getting away with It. 
 

We could have a management team of Pep, Klopp and Jose with Jesus and God as their assistants and this bunch of players would still be messing It all up. 

[Angry Ram]

4 hours ago, Bearwood Ram said:

Just my opinion. We've not exactly moved forward since he went. We've returned to square one far too often since then. 

You’re  entitled to it and I do understand some of the pro Clough arguments.. BUT we did move forward, considerably, then in true Derby fashion we managed to destroy the good once again. 
 

I have never been so bored watching Derby than under Clough and that includes some of the more recent managers we have had.

[TuffLuff]

14 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

Can’t believe how lightly the players are getting off from all this...

Players like Lawrence have been absolutely stealing a living for years at the club, doing absolutely nothing and completely getting away with It. 
 

We could have a management team of Pep, Klopp and Jose with Jesus and God as their assistants and this bunch of players would still be messing It all up. 

Without directly pointing fingers, there are players that have been with us more than two years who were brought for a few million over their actual value that no one else really wants until their contract runs out. 

It falls under recruitment, managers and ownership to me. Pretty much all the players with any character have been allowed to go.

[Wistaston Ram]

3 hours ago, jcidaho said:

The moment of do-or-never for Clough was when we had Commons, Bueno, Cywka and we were playing good stuff. We should have kicked on, but Clough shoved us in reverse and went more defensive minded (at all costs guard the 1-0). 

and Shefti Kuqi who was important in that purple patch.  The real high point was when we took Palace apart (5.0?), but unfortunately it never worked out.

[TuffLuff]

12 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Without directly pointing fingers, there are players that have been with us more than two years who were brought for a few million over their actual value that no one else really wants until their contract runs out. 

It falls under recruitment, managers and ownership to me. Pretty much all the players with any character have been allowed to go.

Or is it a bit fairer to say a lot of the players left from that time are part of the ‘square peg, round hole’ brigade that have been used in mutiple positions or different roles by managers. So to then suit a managers style rather than aid the players development? So they were all players with potential that’s unfulfilled?

[MuespachRam]

19 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Without directly pointing fingers, there are players that have been with us more than two years who were brought for a few million over their actual value that no one else really wants until their contract runs out. 

It falls under recruitment, managers and ownership to me. Pretty much all the players with any character have been allowed to go.

No one wants them because they have performed like a giant bag of dog excrement since signing for us...I don't want to point fingers but I will.. Lawrence being the best example of afore mentioned said dog excrement.

[Nuwtfly]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

I'll never forget that 4-4 match after Clough was sacked - you just knew then that everything was going to change.

What a range of emotions that game was. Was absolutely fuming at half-time. Thought Nigel going was the worst decision we'd ever made.

By 90 minutes my heart was open to a McClaren revolution. Good times. 

[TuffLuff]

12 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

No one wants them because they have performed like a giant bag of dog excrement since signing for us...I don't want to point fingers but I will.. Lawrence being the best example of afore mentioned said dog excrement.

Well I think you have to look to what gone wrong with Lawrence and how it’s affected Derby over his time with the club. In my opinion I think Rowett bought him without much of a plan of what he wanted Lawrence to do, because Lawrence’s stand out year at Ipswich was by being able to do what was Vydra’s role of picking the gaps around the edges of the box. So he ended up having a dodgy year there, then Lampard really put his focus into Mount and Wilson which left him out of sorts. I thought at times under Cocu we started to see the best of Lawrence because he was given a more influential role but obviously it’s gone by the way side now.

Some of its Lawrence’s fault ofcourse, he didn’t maybe push himself to stand out but I think in the key years of his development he wasn’t treated right at that time. I’d argue it’s similar with Wisdom. That in key seasons he didn’t play enough and now we have a player who looks good most of the time but maybe doesn’t have the defensive nous that comes with game experience.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Well I think you have to look to what gone wrong with Lawrence and how it’s affected Derby over his time with the club. In my opinion I think Rowett bought him without much of a plan of what he wanted Lawrence to do, because Lawrence’s stand out year at Ipswich was by being able to do what was Vydra’s role of picking the gaps around the edges of the box. So he ended up having a dodgy year there, then Lampard really put his focus into Mount and Wilson which left him out of sorts. I thought at times under Cocu we started to see the best of Lawrence because he was given a more influential role but obviously it’s gone by the way side now.

Some of its Lawrence’s fault ofcourse, he didn’t maybe push himself to stand out but I think in the key years of his development he wasn’t treated right at that time. I’d argue it’s similar with Wisdom. That in key seasons he didn’t play enough and now we have a player who looks good most of the time but maybe doesn’t have the defensive nous that comes with game experience.

When Lawrence gets a mention regarding his role in the side I think this idea of development always goes seems to go with it .  When he came here he'd had about 7 years at Mau Utd. 4 years at Leicester and about 4 loans including a full season at Ipswich.  He couldn't have had any more development.   He was 24 when we got him. At some point you have to conclude we overspent on him and he was never going to replace Vydra because Vydra was just a lot better. 

Regarding Wisdom- when we signed him on loan he'd played a fair few first team games for Liverpool and was captaining England U21s.  When he came back Liverpool had loaned him to two premier league teams where he hadn't played, followed by a spell in Austria.  The only team interested when we paid a fair size fee were Celtic.  3 years before we couldn't have signed him.   We just signed a player who was not as confident as the original incarnation.