Tyler Durden Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, RoyMac5 said: I still wonder if we'll get incoming when Dutch Mikes signs off, plus maybe if Holmes leaves? With us still not able to cover staffs wages that any money incoming will just cover running costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 14 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Has someone invented a time machine? Don't care that much why we are here, more interested in where we're going. #COYR It’s only a debate that anyone can choose to ignore if they wish. Also, if we’re not going to discuss things that have happened in the past then what is the point of post match debates, player ratings, officials performance in the last game, whether Rooney should have made different/earlier substitutions etc None of those discussions are going to have an impact on the next game (unless Rooney is foolish enough to visit this forum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Tamworthram said: It’s only a debate that anyone can choose to ignore if they wish. Same goes for my comment on the thread itself. Just fed up with the blame game, it's not like with the 3 Amigos or Maxwell, it's not been deliberate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam the Ram Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Well we thought that about appointing a manager. So it's not the case. I still wonder if we'll get incoming when Dutch Mikes signs off, plus maybe if Holmes leaves? Just imagine the outrage amongst the squad if the club sold a couple of their mates and then used the money to bring new players in rather than paying them their owed wages. ? We aren't signing anyone unless these muppets get the takeover that's been 'close to completion' for the past 2 months sorted before the window closes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, Cam the Ram said: Just imagine the outrage amongst the squad if the club sold a couple of their mates and then used the money to bring new players in rather than paying them their owed wages. ? It's not necessarily an either or. But you never know they might think oh well if that gets us winning and keeps us up we'll get better pay in the long run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OoooMarkWright Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Joiners Arms. That incident has had huge repercussions. Losing Keogh was massive. He was an outstanding player at this level. Captain and big for the dressing room. Without that happening, I think we’d have been close last season to a play off spot. We’ve not recovered from that night - ultimately that could lead us to League 1. Keogh was vital to the way we play, we haven’t replaced him. The dressing room hasn’t recovered from that shameful night, and either has the club. That was the beginning of the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, RadioactiveWaste said: I personnaly think what ruined us was the Clement/Dazwaz season, or more specifically, the spending in that season. Bt rights we'd have had a big hangover from that failure and that's where the story of things getting more tricky stems from. But being the willing owner Mel is, he went above and beyond what was sensible to keep trying - there was a huge "but Leicester" feeling that Nigel Person was some sort of genious and turned out to be totally the wrong guy for the job, Vydra and Anya were balanced by selling Hendrick and after a stint of Mac2 we got Rowett. Rowett was mentioning the "finances at the club" as he tried to get players in the building for the 17/18 season - Curtis and Huddz were bargains whilst Vydra proved he was worth the money after all. We sold Hughes. InJanuary we ended up with Jerome (and thankfully not McLean who Rowett seems to have big man love for). At the end of that season we sell Vydra. Is it somewhere around this time Mel sells himself Pride Park to meet FFP? Lampard comes in and it really is a last throw of the dice, so risks are taken, he's allowed signings as well as his loans and it almost pays off. But then he leave and the manner of that might be sub-optimal (cough) and the free spending this'll be our season for sure days are gone, and Mel looks for a long term plan on a more sane wage bill. Then signs Rooney (?) with 32Red sponsorship (?) OK, it's got stardust but is it really the best move? However Cocu isn't to everyone's tast and the team, bar a couple of months when Rooney joins, is just "meh" and the Covid doesn't work out so well. Then last summer, it's just rubbish on the transfer front, there's naff all budget and it also becomes clear it's not going to work with Cocu. I think our current difficulties are much overdue. I think the team has been in decline overall since the Clement season, (in terms of the enjoyment since 2014) however the repeated pushed from Mel to keep going for it have masked that overall trend, Particually in Lampard's season with us. With captain hindsight, a period of steady rebuilding, perhaps even sticking with Nigel Pearson to do it before going again would've been far better in the long term. As it is, we exhausted everything and all that's left is a husk. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and through Pearson, Mac2, Rowett, Lampard and Cocu, there were many good intentions and many millions wasted. Ultimatly, yes, Mel bares responsibility for current strife, but, I wouldn't want it to be misunderstood. For me, Mel should've looked longer term and accepted the failure to go up in the first part of his ownership and been looking to digest that hit and work towards building another attempt. All this is hindsight and speculation on my part, there are others who take some of the blame. Like and agree with this analysis. Mel's fault - if there is one - is not to follow the old saying of "when in a hole, know when to stop digging" quickly enough. We've speculated on here for years about the financial problems building, but we seem to have deferred the pain, or rather Mel has applied some further soothing balm in the form of another signing or two. He must be horrified at the number of players who have become worthless over their contracts with Derby. Every single manager's regime must have contributed to that bonfire of cash. Even in our current predicament if you look at the side playing Rotherham, there's Bielik £10m, Waghorn £5m, Wisdom £4m, Joswiak £3m.........that should give you a decent basis you would think. But still the calls for "more new signings being urgently needed" ring out. He must be wondering when it would ever stop and be completely fed up. So no one thing - just an accumulation of issues over several years. The bit in bold in the post I quoted being particularly pertinent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I have been very critical of Mel over the years. But I don’t think all of the blame should be dumped on his shoulders. A lot of it, but not all of it. The people he trusted - managers like Lampard, Rowett and Cocu, executives like Rush and Pearce, the recruitment team, senior first team players - have not delivered when they needed to stand up and be counted. Professionals held in high regard in their field just simply haven’t lived up to the billing. So it’s an organisational problem. Mel hasn’t had anyone competent to lean on. All clubs need a good structure with people doing their jobs well. It says it all when in six years of Mel being at the helm, the only people that emerge with credit are Wassall and the academy coaches and that’s largely because they are a separate structure and not polluted by first team affairs. When I think of every bad decision Mel has made, you have to wonder who was his sounding board? Why did no-one step in and stop Mel in his tracks? For every bad decision, there was someone in the background who thought it was a good idea or didn’t have the heart or guts to set Mel straight. That’s why we are where we are. Yes, Mel has made plenty of mistakes and as such his legacy won’t be a particularly favourable one. But for every mistake, there is someone who failed to give him sound advice or failed to carry out an accurate risk assessment. That’s where the prospective new owners need to fare better - get the right people in place off the pitch and it will have a positive effect on the pitch. Worryingly, it seems that most of the key people will stay where they are with their fingers on buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy03 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I think since 2014 Mel has really tried to get us up but it just hasn't worked out. He has made poor decisions on recruitment, not spending wisely, managerial changes which is the major factor in why we didn't go up. But at the same time he has had a fair share of bad luck, the margins have been thin. But this is football. It was clear that lampards season was the last big throw of the dice. We bought in a lot of players, not just the loans. Marriott, waghorn, jozefzoon, Holmes, Evans, Malone. That's a lot of money spent. Again in hindsight you can question some of these signings but at the time it didn't matter because we had a good squad. A big squad with a lot of experience but also talent. Carson, Roos, Bogle, Wisdom, Keogh, Tomori, Davies, Evans, Malone, Forsyth, Cole, Huddlestone, Johnson, Mount, Bryson, Holmes, Wilson, Lawrence, Jozefzoon, Bennett, Nugent, Marriott, Waghorn. We fall short again. But it's not just all about losing the loan players. Yes they were always going to be a big miss, but we also lose the likes of Nugent, Johnson and Bryson. The experience is slowly being ripped from the squad and replaced with kids. Mel has now made it clear he wants to go down a different route and use the academy. Basically that tells me he's got no money to spend. Instantly that says we're not going to be fighting for promotion. Cocu got a lot of things wrong I don't really think his style was ever going to work out here but he was dealt an awful hand. Whether it was his decision or Mel's, we decide to further strip the squad down by getting rid of Huddlestone, Malone, Bennett and Jozefzoon. And still, we don't really replace the experience. Bogle and Lowe are sold. Is Byrne any better? Difficult to say. But I wouldn't say we've strengthened in those positions, if anything we've downgraded again because we have less numbers at left back. We bring in some good recruits such as Jozwiak but it's still not enough. Duncan is an academy player who can't get in the first team. Ibe I don't think will ever kick a ball for us. Te Wierik is back off to Holland as I type this. The summer window wasn't good. We let Marriott out on loan when we need players in the building. Strange decision. The reason we are where we are is because of Mel's ridiculous plan, as a result of his spending habits in the past. We lack serious quality in too many areas. Lack of experience and leadership all over the field. A team half full of academy players, some who just aren't good enough. It sounds like the perfect recipe to get relegated to League one. And this is exactly what Craig Ramage said to Mel himself on Radio Derby last season. And Mel basically told us to put up and shut up because this is how it's going to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 33 minutes ago, Steve How Hard? said: I'd like to think it was a smart/shrewd move on Mels part. He in a way forced Rowett out and got compensation to boot. It almost paid dividends too as we ended up a whisker away from achieving his/our dream. Interesting theory. Total baalocks, but interesting nonetheless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuwtfly Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1) COVID hits a club already walking a very thin financial tight rope. 2) We (yet again) fall down at the most crucial hurdle when it comes to player recruitment. An adequate goal scorer is not brought in to replace Chris Martin, rendering Cocu’s system hamstrung. Add on to this MTW, who certainly isn’t the heir apparent to Keogh, or even Wisdom ?♂️ 3) Injuries are rife, again a result of COVID, as the players don’t get to rest. We start the season missing many of our most crucial players, including Krystian Bielik. We can see now how vital he is to this team. How much did Cocu get to use him? We start the season with a limited attacking line, to say the least. 4) The players who ARE fit to play are way, way off it. Rooney looks like he’s packed it in. We play some shocking football, largely as a result of 1, 2 and 3, including the worst performance I have seen for many years (against Blackburn). 5) Takeover talk begins. The future now seems uncertain behind the scenes. Unrest grows around the camp like weeds. 6) After a prolonged period of poor result, Phillip Cocu is sacked. Even his most staunch supporters see this as the right decision. The opportunity for a fresh start arrives...what happens next is where we seal our fate... 7) The club opts to give the job to four coaches...yes, four...none of which have managed a team. It’s an embarrassing audition period that backfires, as everyone could see coming. The warning signs are there. One of the coaches continues to play himself, until an ACTUAL manager arrives at the club and highlights what all of us could already see: that this situation is ridiculous. -8) The club continue to give the management responsibility to 50% of the team who got us here in the first place. The club captain is given the No.1 role. We manage ONE great performance against Swansea, and manage to beat a Millwall side and a Birmingham side who put in performances that are almost as bad as ours. The rest of the games include failing to beat most of the teams we really need to be beating. 9) Takeover doubts have now festered into rot. Players aren’t getting paid. No players can be bought due to an embargo. The mild hop of the Rooney ‘bounce’ goes. He gets given the job full time, much to the joy of 95% of the fan base. The managerial team who got us here and now a permanent fixture. We lose to Rotherham, who have two games in hand ahead of us. If we don’t go down now, I would be surprised. We are in free fall and have put a team in charge with no managerial experience between them. Combine that with what is going on behind the scenes, and it’s a recipe for disaster. A Sunderland tribute act. And what chance we had to turn this around was squandered by the people in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC1976 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 41 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: I think that’s the point he’s making. The spending didn’t necessarily stop post-Rush. I still don’t understand why Mel allegedly told Rowett after the Fulham game that he’d be on a shoestring budget, and then as soon as Lampard comes in we can spend millions on Waghorn, Marriott, Malone, etc, plus the loanees. I know we had sold Vydra, but I still feel the goalposts had moved. I think the Vydra sale did finance the signings, I don’t see the problem with telling Rowett that he has to work with a stricter budget. He obviously didn’t fancy it and jumped ship, spent millions at Stoke and got sacked. Probably should have stayed at Derby and worked with the players similar to what he’s doing at Millwall and had done at Birmingham, he was obviously good at it?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab a dab doo Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I don't think we need too much elaboration as to the reasons why we are, where we are. The over riding thread which runs through all our dealing is a lack of patience and understanding. Whether this be the choice of managers and their backing, the purchase and sale of players or the curbing of over ambition and short- termism. These together with a naivety in the boardroom (not for first time in our history). has led us to this current predicament. What happens next? That is anyone's guess only time will tell. Only one thing is certain The Rams will get through this and one day have their day in the sun again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam the Ram Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Far too often matters off the pitch are having an impact on the pitch through various means. Unpaid players for the 2nd January in a row. A very useful tool for getting the players to fight to keep this club in the division ... Transfer embargos so managers can't bring in the players they want. Wanting a high percentage of the team to be made up of academy players. We're not far off that now and although they're clearly talented players, we're 2nd bottom in the league and look like we lack leadership and experience. Signing a big name player like Rooney (allegedly with the help of 32 Red) which resulted in him almost having to be shoehorned into the team even if he's out of form or we have a system that doesn't suit him. From Cocu's original interviews about it he didn't sound like it was someone he identified and wanted to sign but rather was told he was getting. Deciding to sack Keogh and impose lesser punishments on the 2 drivers. Everyone has an opinion on whether this was the correct decision or not and that's fine, but the players have just seen their injured mate and captain sacked by the club. Again, that's not going to really encourage them to work any harder when they've just watched their teammate be treated as disposable because he's injured. Mel going into the dressing room during/after a game. It just undermines the manager. The club seemingly being in the papers almost every week because something negative has happened off the pitch. As a fan I'm fed up of it so I'd imagine the players are too. Take me back to the days of McClaren 1 where we weren't in the news for something bad every week, the lads just turned up, played some football and the most us fans had to worry about was hoping that the ref wasn't crap. Now days I open the forum and I'm half expecting to see news about the takeover fully collapsing, players being sold on the cheap to get out of FFP problems or even worse, administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said: Some people will inevitably say losing Chris Martin but I refuse to accept losing 1 player is the difference between 10th and bottom 3. I think Covid has had a big impact. Yes you can argue it’s the same for everyone but I think in recent years we’ve relied on fans to lift us and it’s got us through tight games where we’ve struggled. It’s no coincidence we’ve gone from having one of the best home records in the league for the past 3 seasons (even last season) to the worst this season. However the bigger impact of Covid was the short turnaround time between seasons. With the injuries sustained at the end of last season we didn’t have the time to get players right. Then you add in a transfer embargo due to the EFL appeal, this meant we had to sell to buy to improve the squad, due to the small turnaround time this couldn’t be done until into the season. I think it was inevitable we would start this season slowly, though no one expected this. Then you have to look at the management. I don’t know what happened in the summer but we came back undercooked. They talked about needing to match the intensity of the likes of Leeds, yet only had 4 weeks to change this. But either way we weren’t fit enough at the start of season. We therefore started badly and Cocu’s thinking became scrambled as he searched for results. Additionally, his complicated training methods, maybe some of the messages that had been landing last season when we rose from bottom 6 to 10th weren’t landing now, or teams had worked us out and he didn’t have an answer. Maybe due to lack of different squad options which leads us to recruitment. Lets face it is our recruitment dating back to 15/16 that has been a huge problem. Firstly it was throwing money at seasoned pros without thinking about where to play them, meaning they had no resale value and 4 years down the line we’ve still felt the impact through FFP (got to question whether these rules are right, we’ve not exactly thrown money at transfers since 15/16 though admittedly wages have become unsustainable). This continued with Rowett to a lesser degree and definitely with Lampard who has left us with Waghorn Jozefzoon and Malone who we lose in the region of £11m on. I think we’ve also underestimated the challenge of bringing through the academy players. They will make mistakes, they don’t have experience to fall back on when going gets tough. The are some similarities with this Derby team and the Southampton one that was relegated to League 1, went into admin (I think) although i think we have more experience than that Southampton team. Interestingly that Southampton team contained the likes of Schneiderlain, Lallana, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Walcott. There are probably others i missed. The former two played two seasons in league 1 and then played an integral part in back to back promotions to mid table premier league under Nigel Adkins, also aided by a takeover. Then there is the managerial merry go round where the buck stops with Mel. Big mistake to sack Steve McClaren twice. Clement was a bad appointment, Pearson was a bad fit as he was too dogmatic in his playing style, he needed to adapt to his squad. He was unlucky with Rowett and Lampard moving on, although the latter it would have been interesting how we got on last season without Mount Wilson and Tomori. Ironically, working to a budget and trying to build something would be ideal for Rowett although there would be question marks on whether he’d bring through the youth. Cocu was a visionary appointment but a combination of his playing style not being suited to championship football and the build up of baggage from years of poor recruitment and some questionable managerial appointments early on meant it didn’t work. So all of the above is why we’re where we are. I think Mel is partly to blame particularly with the way he managed the club in the first couple of years though I think in the past 18-24 months we’ve tried to follow a more sustainable path but have been hamstrung by the mismanagement dating back a few seasons ago. But I think it’s harsh to put all the blame at his door. He’s tried to compete and we have competed for 5 seasons at the sharp end of the league against clubs that dwarf us with revenues due to parachute payments and we’re now paying the price, exacerbated by Covid. The alternative would be a more sustainable approach but that would involve 3-4 seasons of mediocrity which fans would kick off about and then result in a 1-2 season window where we might have a team to challenge and you have to get it done - in the league that is probably the toughest to be promoted in the world. Money and the Premier League is ruining football as a whole, we’ve tried to compete and now we’re struggling. And we won’t be the last, I think more clubs financial situations will be brought to bare in the coming 12 months. A certain club in my now home city has the same revenue problems as us due to Covid, high wages due to a squad of about 35 senior pros, they don’t have that many youngsters coming through and they are not going to be promoted this season. How are they going to sustain it? I think we’re just the tip of the iceberg. Our position is being highlighted as we’re going through a takeover and we’re still going through the EFL investigations. ????? 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Comrade 86 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 14 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said: 1) COVID hits a club already walking a very thin financial tight rope. 2) We (yet again) fall down at the most crucial hurdle when it comes to player recruitment. An adequate goal scorer is not brought in to replace Chris Martin, rendering Cocu’s system hamstrung. Add on to this MTW, who certainly isn’t the heir apparent to Keogh, or even Wisdom ?♂️ 3) Injuries are rife, again a result of COVID, as the players don’t get to rest. We start the season missing many of our most crucial players, including Krystian Bielik. We can see now how vital he is to this team. How much did Cocu get to use him? We start the season with a limited attacking line, to say the least. 4) The players who ARE fit to play are way, way off it. Rooney looks like he’s packed it in. We play some shocking football, largely as a result of 1, 2 and 3, including the worst performance I have seen for many years (against Blackburn). 5) Takeover talk begins. The future now seems uncertain behind the scenes. Unrest grows around the camp like weeds. 6) After a prolonged period of poor result, Phillip Cocu is sacked. Even his most staunch supporters see this as the right decision. The opportunity for a fresh start arrives...what happens next is where we seal our fate... 7) The club opts to give the job to four coaches...yes, four...none of which have managed a team. It’s an embarrassing audition period that backfires, as everyone could see coming. The warning signs are there. One of the coaches continues to play himself, until an ACTUAL manager arrives at the club and highlights what all of us could already see: that this situation is ridiculous. -8) The club continue to give the management responsibility to 50% of the team who got us here in the first place. The club captain is given the No.1 role. We manage ONE great performance against Swansea, and manage to beat a Millwall side and a Birmingham side who put in performances that are almost as bad as ours. The rest of the games include failing to beat most of the teams we really need to be beating. 9) Takeover doubts have now festered into rot. Players aren’t getting paid. No players can be bought due to an embargo. The mild hop of the Rooney ‘bounce’ goes. He gets given the job full time, much to the joy of 95% of the fan base. The managerial team who got us here and now a permanent fixture. We lose to Rotherham, who have two games in hand ahead of us. If we don’t go down now, I would be surprised. We are in free fall and have put a team in charge with no managerial experience between them. Combine that with what is going on behind the scenes, and it’s a recipe for disaster. A Sunderland tribute act. And what chance we had to turn this around was squandered by the people in charge. Yeah but why else? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Cam the Ram said: Deciding to sack Keogh and impose lesser punishments on the 2 drivers. Everyone has an opinion on whether this was the correct decision or not and that's fine, but the players have just seen their injured mate and captain sacked by the club. Again, that's not going to really encourage them to work any harder when they've just watched their teammate be treated as disposable because he's injured. It's ironic now that Keogh will be going back to a Championship club for a transfer fee after Morris effectively tried to save some money short term by shafting him on his wages. And we've been short of a decent centre back for last season and definitely this season. Penny wise pound foolish from Morris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 You don't bare (expose) a burden, you bear (carry) it. Hope this helps. Phew! Feel better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 19 minutes ago, Rab a dab doo said: I don't think we need too much elaboration as to the reasons why we are, where we are. The over riding thread which runs through all our dealing is a lack of patience and understanding. Whether this be the choice of managers and their backing, the purchase and sale of players or the curbing of over ambition and short- termism. These together with a naivety in the boardroom (not for first time in our history). has led us to this current predicament. What happens next? That is anyone's guess only time will tell. Only one thing is certain The Rams will get through this and one day have their day in the sun again. The problem is the opposite. Every decision that Mel has made has been for the long-term. The trouble is that long term plans don't work out in this division. We just get left with lots of debris that was designed to be of long term benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 38 minutes ago, enachops said: Joiners Arms. That incident has had huge repercussions. Losing Keogh was massive. He was an outstanding player at this level. Captain and big for the dressing room. Without that happening, I think we’d have been close last season to a play off spot. We’ve not recovered from that night - ultimately that could lead us to League 1. Keogh was vital to the way we play, we haven’t replaced him. The dressing room hasn’t recovered from that shameful night, and either has the club. That was the beginning of the end. Was huge yes as was the way club dealt with it across the players involved and how we were viewed from outside. Think this also soured relations with some players (just a guess not ITk). Also financial cost of Keogh going, payoff, employment lawyers, etc. Perhaps Cocu not being quite right for the championship game would have been more certain earlier as many of us felt he had been dealt a bad hand on this and the ship could have turned course again sooner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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