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Can we beat the relegation?


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35 minutes ago, Zag zig said:

There is some real wrist slashing posts in this thread, tonight once again proves we are nowhere near ready to be written off.

Rooney is getting us to play much better football, defensive shape is largely there, all we need is a bit more goal scoring threat in general, as again tonight we are creating chances under Rooney.

Yes the Rotherham loss was depressing, I kept off here after that game, but one poor game shouldn’t stop the upward momentum Rooney is creating. Keep the faith people.

I agree that when we are still in touch then you can't write us or any team off.

Am not convinced though that Rooney has what it takes to get a consistent level of performance from the group of players at his disposal, as I said in another thread we've bounced from the ridiculous to the sublime tonight but quite as likely to bounce right back to the ridiculous again in the following game.

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21 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

5-2-3 & a hard-working midfield worked a treat tonight against ambitious opponents but more often than not, we'll be pressed to within an inch of our lives (particularly Bielik). I've seen little evidence that Rooney is able to put a team out to combat a high press, to repeatedly threaten teams who don't give us space or change the pattern of games in which we're second best or go behind. Add to that the habit of losing results late on against teams around us (and the advantage they get from these '6 pointers') means I'm still struggling to identify 3 teams worse than us.

How many of them have a bench like ours?

We were ordinary against Rotherham but still should have scored.

You give Rooney no credit for doing so well with so little.

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I think the forum frontpage needs a big "Relagometer" dial to give an indication of how badly we're heading down.

After saturday it'd have been pointing towards "yeah, probably" but after toight it's maybe just moved around to "squeeky bum time" and a win against QPR might even move it further round to "maybe it'll be ok" however the takeover news mught spin it back to "Sunderland tribute shitness"

Something like:

 

relagometer.png

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10 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

How many of them have a bench like ours?

We were ordinary against Rotherham but still should have scored.

You give Rooney no credit for doing so well with so little.

I absolutely do not accept our bench is substantially inferior to Rotherham, Sheffield Wednesday, Wycombe, Coventry etc

If you read my assessment on the match thread, I've clearly given Rooney credit for the team selection & tactics tonight. It's overegging it to say he's done 'so well' overall - he's done OK so far but we're 21st. There's also not much dispute that Rotherham totally outplayed us Saturday.

To avoid relegation we need to start picking up points against teams that don't want to play onto us - that's my point & we'll see Saturday whether that improves. And if he picks up a result there, I'll give him some more credit.

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The Swansea and Bournemouth wins have been really heartening.

But it’s a bittersweet feeling at the same time.

We have picked up 9 points from 24 against Wycombe, Coventry, Rotherham, Preston, Stoke, Millwall, Sheff Wed and Birmingham.

That will be the story come the end of the season - wondering what could have been.

Rooney has shown that he can set us up to be solid, organised, hard to beat, and even competitive against higher placed sides, and he deserves full and total credit for that.

But now he needs to develop his game management. He needs to start influencing these tight games in our favour.

Tonight will be quickly forgotten about if we lose 2-1 v QPR and 1-0 v Rotherham, for example.

9 of Rooney’s 11 games in charge have either been a draw or decided by one goal, but in six of those nine games we were victims to those tight margins.

We have to see some evolution there, let’s hope it comes on Saturday.

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Not considering relegation at present think if the lads pull together we should finish mid table,beating Bournemouth ,Norwich and Swansea shows we can bang out a result. Wayne needs to start useing subs towards the last 20 mins to rest legs. If they aren't good enough to play shouldn't be on the bench. Would like to see sibley get a bit of time and hope Ibe can become useful soon.

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We have seen evolution with 16 points in 11 games and vastly differing performances to what we witnessed prior to Rooney taking charge. Rotherham was the only bad game, and Covid had a huge part to play in that.

Yes we need some more wins but we’re here because of the first 13 games not the last 11 games. We have seen improvement. 
 

We also need to stop looking at it in terms of league position in assessing whether we should win or not. Anyone can beat anyone in this league on a given day and if you’re not quite at it you come unstuck. We lost to Rotherham we dropped points against Wycombe but we beat Swansea and Bournemouth. We might lose to QPR but could easily beat Bristol. 
 

We just need to keep ticking over and get enough points on the board. It would just make it more pleasant if we went on a run of wins to achieve safety early and start looking forward to next season

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9 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

We have seen evolution with 16 points in 11 games and vastly differing performances to what we witnessed prior to Rooney taking charge. Rotherham was the only bad game, and Covid had a huge part to play in that.

Yes we need some more wins but we’re here because of the first 13 games not the last 11 games. We have seen improvement. 
 

We also need to stop looking at it in terms of league position in assessing whether we should win or not. Anyone can beat anyone in this league on a given day and if you’re not quite at it you come unstuck. We lost to Rotherham we dropped points against Wycombe but we beat Swansea and Bournemouth. We might lose to QPR but could easily beat Bristol. 
 

We just need to keep ticking over and get enough points on the board. It would just make it more pleasant if we went on a run of wins to achieve safety early and start looking forward to next season

At the moment, our fate isn’t in our own hands. Why are we having to follow Rotherham v Stoke and Cardiff v QPR? Simple. Because we have dropped far too many points against poor sides.

Take the eight points we have dropped against the bottom three alone and we’d be on 30 points now and bidding for a top half finish.

You keep referring back to the first 13 games of the season to defend Rooney. But Rooney knew exactly where we were when he took the job because he played a significant role as a player, coach, and co-manager. In any case you can bet your house that he would have earmarked games against Wycombe, Coventry, Rotherham and Sheff Wed as important games for any potential revival.

Yes, anyone can beat anyone in this league but us beating Bournemouth and Swansea will only hold weight if it’s consolidated by getting results in the games against the teams around us. 

It’s very easy to be blasé and say points are points and it doesn’t matter where they come from, but we are giving teams around us lifeline after lifeline when you think about it.

Continue as we are and we are going to leave ourselves in a position where we have to go to Reading away in April needing to win because we dropped the ball against much more favourable opposition. I’d much rather take control of our destiny by taking care of business against QPR and Rotherham and other such teams, wouldn’t you?

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It all comes down to one thing. Signing that player who is going to score or create more goals. 
 

If that doesn’t happen we won’t survive. If it does, we’ll have a good balance to the team. 
 

But currently, without question we are a player short of survival. 

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29 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

Cocu: 11 games, 6 points
Rooney: 11 games, 16 points

Cocu's record over 46 games: 25 points (relegated)
Rooney's record over 46 games: 67 points (top 10)

To say there hasn't been a significant improvement is a ridiculous statement. Football is better, results are better.

It’s a flawed comparison, to be honest. Too many variables at play. Different opposition with the exception of one game, different players available, and form is volatile. You can’t project what either manager would achieve based on what could be Cocu’s worst run versus what could turn out to be Rooney’s best spell. There will be peaks and troughs after all.

At the end of the day though, no one is disputing there hasn’t been an improvement. Some of us are simply judging Rooney on his 11 games and asking the question: is it enough and will it be enough to ensure we are playing Championship football next season?

Right now, it could be argued either way. I just think many of those raising doubts over Rooney would feel more secure with him if we were beating our direct competition.
 

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35 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

At the end of the day though, no one is disputing there hasn’t been an improvement. Some of us are simply judging Rooney on his 11 games and asking the question: is it enough and will it be enough to ensure we are playing Championship football next season?

Right now, it could be argued either way. I just think many of those raising doubts over Rooney would feel more secure with him if we were beating our direct competition

Yes it was massively disappointing to not pick up any points against Wednesday, Rotherham and Preston but generally under Rooney the performances have been good. The players look like they can run for days, they win individual battles, they scrap and battle. This is what gives me great hope that we will escape this situation.

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1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

Yes it was massively disappointing to not pick up any points against Wednesday, Rotherham and Preston but generally under Rooney the performances have been good. The players look like they can run for days, they win individual battles, they scrap and battle. This is what gives me great hope that we will escape this situation.

Just to underline my point of how much difference dropped points can make when playing teams around us.

We conceded late goals v Wycombe, Coventry, Rotherham and Sheff Wed, dropping six points in the process. Of course it is more if you believe we should have won all four games.

But OK, if we hadn’t dropped those six points, this is how the table would look currently:

16. Derby 24 28

17. Millwall 23 26

18. Birmingham 24 26

19. Forest 24 25

20. Coventry 24 25

21. QPR 23 24

22. Rotherham 22 18

23. Sheff Wed 23 17

24. Wycombe 23 14

If that doesn’t illustrate why people like myself are placing so much importance on getting results in games of this nature and being on the right side of fine margins, I don’t know what will.

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5 hours ago, Jourdan said:

At the moment, our fate isn’t in our own hands. 

This is way too dramatic and I couldn't disagree more. Get 1.4 points per game rest of the season and we'll be safe and sound with games to go.

Most likely less than 1.4 will do. Therefore, we don't need help from others to stay up and our fate Is firmly in our own hands. 

It's a different question can we do it.

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As Harry storer would say, how many hearts have I got today?

Shinnie, bielik, knight, Byrne, jozwiak, kazim-Richards, Clarke, Waghorn, wisdom....

we can battle. 
but can we score enough? That is the challenge.

 

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