Jump to content

Isaac Hutchinson - Joined Forest Green Rovers on loan


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

8 league apps in 18/19, 22 in 19/20, 2 in 20/21 and 8 games in the cups (in a struggling Southend side).

Sounds like squad player to me.

2018/19 - 8 league games as an 18 year old (debut New Years Day 2019) 

2019/20 - 22 league games in a season curtailed by Covid (after 30 odd games?)for three different managers.

2020/21 - 2 league games (from 2) before joining Derby.

Plus Cups.

Looks a little different depending on how you paint it? 

Either way 40 games as a teenager is still quite substantial experience and probably warranted at least regular contact with first team squad?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

2018/19 - 8 league games as an 18 year old (debut New Years Day 2019) 

2019/20 - 22 league games in a season curtailed by Covid (after 30 odd games?)for three different managers.

2020/21 - 2 league games (from 2) before joining Derby.

Plus Cups.

Looks a little different depending on how you paint it? 

Either way 40 games as a teenager is still quite substantial experience and probably warranted at least regular contact with first team squad?

An average of less than 60 minutes during those 22 league games in 19/20. Squad player.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

An average of less than 60 minutes during those 22 league games in 19/20. Squad player.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to demonstrate. We have no idea on the situation to start using averages. The season was curtailed early cutting the season short by at least a third. We don’t know many things about the situation (injuries, squad size, tactics) but we do know that Southend probably wasn’t the environment for a young attacking player to thrive. We do know they went through 5 managers in 18 months which is unsettling for experienced pros let alone teenagers. We do know the season was only 2/3s long.

On a quick Google search it shows that he was also voted in the top 75 players in the entire EFL by opposition fans, so he obviously played often enough to impress.

All I’m saying is that to sign a 20 year old with that level of EFL experience you’d expect him to be considered a first team squad player, at least training with the likes of JHI, Whittaker etc

What I’m sure we can agree on is it’s no surprise that further EFL experience at a club that are clearly more stable than Southend were, will be more beneficial than half a dozen 23s games....?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

I’m not sure what you’re trying to demonstrate.

Just that his 'level' as a regular starter is likely L2, given he was only a squad player in L2 last season

1 hour ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

We have no idea on the situation to start using averages. The season was curtailed early cutting the season short by at least a third. We don’t know many things about the situation (injuries, squad size, tactics) but we do know that Southend probably wasn’t the environment for a young attacking player to thrive. We do know they went through 5 managers in 18 months which is unsettling for experienced pros let alone teenagers. We do know the season was only 2/3s long.

We know he was in all but 3 matchday squad for Southend at the start of last season, so he didn't have any injury issues. 
We know how many minutes he played, which equates to 60 minutes per game played. Taking into account the games he remained on the bench and his match involvement drops below 45%.

We can also see that he was Southend's 14th most used player in the league. He was one of 25 players to have played for at least 270 mins.

1 hour ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

On a quick Google search it shows that he was also voted in the top 75 players in the entire EFL by opposition fans, so he obviously played often enough to impress.

All I’m saying is that to sign a 20 year old with that level of EFL experience you’d expect him to be considered a first team squad player, at least training with the likes of JHI, Whittaker etc

I don't think we should expect a squad player for a struggling L1 club to be a squad player in the Championship just a year on. Some players do make that leap, but not many. If he was a regular starter for Southend, I feel it would be justifiable for him to have expected to be a squad player for us this season - but that was not the case.

1 hour ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

What I’m sure we can agree on is it’s no surprise that further EFL experience at a club that are clearly more stable than Southend were, will be more beneficial than half a dozen 23s games....?

Definitely. What we didn't want to do was send him to club where he wouldn't be playing regularly. JML at Bristol and Lowe at Shrewsbury spring to mind.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Just that his 'level' as a regular starter is likely L2, given he was only a squad player in L2 last season

I’m sure you mean L1 last season? But I maintain that simply from gathering numbers off a website you cannot know the situation he may have been in. From 3 different managers law of averages says he may not have been all of their cups of tea and given the league placing it was very possible managers opted to not use a 19 year old No 10 in certain games knowing they’d probably spend most of the game defending scrapping for a point.

 

20 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We know he was in all but 3 matchday squad for Southend at the start of last season, so he didn't have any injury issues. 
We know how many minutes he played, which equates to 60 minutes per game played. Taking into account the games he remained on the bench and his match involvement drops below 45%.

We can also see that he was Southend's 14th most used player in the league. He was one of 25 players to have played for at least 270 mins.

Again your using simple mathematics to emphasise a point that that may have more complex circumstances. Using simple mathematics I can establish that Louis Sibley averages just 38 mins per game this season. Morgan Whittaker just 23 minutes whereas Max Bird averages 64! Yet most on here wouldn’t use that as a means to determine who is the better player or who was more valuable, has more potential or is more or less of a squad player.

I realise it will be argued that they are all squad players which is fair, but arguably most would say Sibley should be used more and so his minutes / game average isn’t a reflection of his ability or potential but more of the circumstances the team is in and a managers choice of tactics? Southend had 3 managers last season maybe one of them didn’t fancy him as a player? Maybe he’d have played the last 15 games of the season and his average shows him to be more than a ‘squad’ player. We don’t know and that’s my point.

Also, I’d agree that Sibley / Whittaker / Bird are probably deemed squad players at the moment subject to opinion but if any of them left for a Premier league club they’d be surprised if they only trained with a 23s group based on their senior involvement here alone...especially should they join a club on the bottom 6, say, just one league above their current experience levels (a top 6 prem club may see that differently).

36 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I don't think we should expect a squad player for a struggling L1 club to be a squad player in the Championship just a year on. Some players do make that leap, but not many. If he was a regular starter for Southend, I feel it would be justifiable for him to have expected to be a squad player for us this season - but that was not the case.

I agree. I wasn’t suggesting for one second that he should’ve been a matchday addition. If you look back I was simply suggesting that with that level of EFL first team involvement you’d have at least expected to be involved in the group training regularly (not every day every week) and by his involvement Saturday it’s clear he wasn’t. Given that players like Watson and Gordon were who have zero senior minutes whatsoever it seemed strange. 
It was evident Saturday the step up for all players from 18s or 23s football into any level of senior football is very difficult and league 1 is a very unforgiving level.

 

40 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Definitely. What we didn't want to do was send him to club where he wouldn't be playing regularly. JML at Bristol and Lowe at Shrewsbury spring to mind.

I agree again. It’s vital that players who go out on loan get the minutes they were going for or there is little point other than possibly a very young player who could benefit from simply an experience around the senior football.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on the principle of all these things. The arguments around minutes / squad players etc are semantics which will be arbitrary at best. 
 

Hopefully the lad gets his minutes in, shows some good development and helps FGR into league 1 and comes back here to play in the championship next season....it’s entirely possible that we could play FGR next season and he’d be the most experienced league 1 player we have!!! Unlikely (we hope!) but entirely possible - there’s not a huge gulf in our current positions!

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/01/2021 at 14:09, Jubbs said:

Southend are a complete and utter mess of a club. He was performing well in a lot of areas at Southend, was a good deal to pick up for us, potential is there. He'd benefit more from a loan to a team performing well in League 2 than a rubbish League 1 team.

Ummm.... So are we... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account.

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.