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1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

Query why rightly so to stick with Rooney

Because he has improved us a great deal in a very short time. Has changed the playing style completely from ponderous, slow possession for possessions sake football that was boring us all to tears to something that is much more watchable. He has stopped the rot of almost constant 2,3 and 4 nil defeats and made us hard to beat. Yes we are not yet scoring many goals but that will come, the first job was to make us defensively solid. He has continued to give the youngsters a chance. He appears to have the backing of the players. Wcould not reasonably have expected him to have achieved much more than he has in this short time  

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1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

Why would Bilic come here?

The only reason he went to WBA in the first place was because they had finished in the play-offs the previous year and were well placed for another promotion bid.

Why is he going to go from one relegation fight to another?

Errrrrr.......because he's out of a job which seems reason enough I would have thought.

Saying that I'd be disappointed if he came to us

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6 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

Because he has improved us a great deal in a very short time. Has changed the playing style completely from ponderous, slow possession for possessions sake football that was boring us all to tears to something that is much more watchable. He has stopped the rot of almost constant 2,3 and 4 nil defeats and made us hard to beat. Yes we are not yet scoring many goals but that will come, the first job was to make us defensively solid. He has continued to give the youngsters a chance. He appears to have the backing of the players. Wcould not reasonably have expected him to have achieved much more than he has in this short time  

You must be watching different games to me then. We failed to beat two relegation fodder teams at home, are set up in such a dour manner with a zero risk approach meaning we don't concede but then don't trouble the opposition either and therefore still can't buy a goal and to crown things substitute substitutes which underlines a total lack of appreciation of game management and covering up personal mistakes. 

If that's your idea of good then hate to think what bad looks like. 

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5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

You must be watching different games to me then. We failed to beat two relegation fodder teams at home, are set up in such a dour manner with a zero risk approach meaning we don't concede but then don't trouble the opposition either and therefore still can't buy a goal and to crown things substitute substitutes which underlines a total lack of appreciation of game management and covering up personal mistakes. 

If that's your idea of good then hate to think what bad looks like. 

What did you expect, Wazza is made Manager and we then suddenly start beating teams 3-0 after the start we have had? I am not Wazza's biggest fan and I am not sure he is right for the job at this time but small steps...he has made us hard to beat and we are on a mini unbeaten run, 5 games without defeat and 3 clean sheets in a row. Give him a chance and a bit of credit for that surely.....

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The way I see it is that if we are looking for a Steady Eddie to get us out of the mire (e.g. Paul Cook), then Rooney is doing a pretty good job so far. 

If we are looking for a big name manager with a proven track record and thus to replace Rooney, it would need to be a higher achiever or draw than Slaven Bilic. 

Bringing in a new manager could be disruptive and we would need a major coup, with the promise of imminent Premier league football, for that to happen. 

Benitez would have come under that category. 

If you're towards the bottom of the league then in order to attract good new players, you need to be able to convince them the new manager has big plans. 

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2 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

What did you expect, Wazza is made Manager and we then suddenly start beating teams 3-0 after the start we have had? I am not Wazza's biggest fan and I am not sure he is right for the job at this time but small steps...he has made us hard to beat and we are on a mini unbeaten run, 5 games without defeat and 3 clean sheets in a row. Give him a chance and a bit of credit for that surely.....

We agree on this 

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18 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

Because he has improved us a great deal in a very short time. Has changed the playing style completely from ponderous, slow possession for possessions sake football that was boring us all to tears to something that is much more watchable. He has stopped the rot of almost constant 2,3 and 4 nil defeats and made us hard to beat. Yes we are not yet scoring many goals but that will come, the first job was to make us defensively solid. He has continued to give the youngsters a chance. He appears to have the backing of the players. Wcould not reasonably have expected him to have achieved much more than he has in this short time  

There is a lot that's highly debatable about your post but the highlighted is downright misleading, we've only lost 4 games this season by more than 1 goal; two were 2-0s and one of which was after Rooney partially took over.

Argue if you want that he's made us solid (although that's mostly down to opposition and picking some very defensive lineups), but "constant 2, 3 and 4 nil defeats" is blatently untrue.

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11 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

You must be watching different games to me then. We failed to beat two relegation fodder teams at home, are set up in such a dour manner with a zero risk approach meaning we don't concede but then don't trouble the opposition either and therefore still can't buy a goal and to crown things substitute substitutes which underlines a total lack of appreciation of game management and covering up personal mistakes. 

If that's your idea of good then hate to think what bad looks like. 

How we were playing immediately before Rooney was made the sole manager?

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7 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

What did you expect, Wazza is made Manager and we then suddenly start beating teams 3-0 after the start we have had? I am not Wazza's biggest fan and I am not sure he is right for the job at this time but small steps...he has made us hard to beat and we are on a mini unbeaten run, 5 games without defeat and 3 clean sheets in a row. Give him a chance and a bit of credit for that surely.....

He gets credit for making us defensively solid, but he has done it at the expense of any attacking prowess whatsoever. As far as I am concerned there is very little difference between the way we play under Rooney and the way we played under Cocu. We've stopped changing the team quite so often and Bielik is back now, but other than that its basically the same.

Edited by GenBr
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1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

Not sure if that's meant to be a rhetorical question so haven't replied. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It was rhetorical, not that I'm suggesting we're now lighting up the league playing irresistible football... but before this it was very bad. In fact we were so cack before I don't think any manger was going to come in and transform us into something we're not.

We have to start offering more going forward, but it's easier to convert draws into wins than it is losses.

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17 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

The way I see it is that if we are looking for a Steady Eddie to get us out of the mire (e.g. Paul Cook), then Rooney is doing a pretty good job so far. 

If we are looking for a big name manager with a proven track record and thus to replace Rooney, it would need to be a higher achiever or draw than Slaven Bilic. 

Bringing in a new manager could be disruptive and we would need a major coup, with the promise of imminent Premier league football, for that to happen. 

Benitez would have come under that category. 

If you're towards the bottom of the league then in order to attract good new players, you need to be able to convince them the new manager has big plans. 

Truth is, I think we are are at a cross roads as a club, a really big one.

Could be on the edge of a Cox type Golden Age  ...  alternately Pooh Strasse beckons

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12 minutes ago, GenBr said:

He gets credit for making us defensively solid, but he has done it at the expense of any attacking prowess whatsoever. As far as I am concerned there is very little difference between the way we play under Rooney and the way we played under Cocu. We've stopped changing the team quite so often and Bielik is back now, but other than that its basically the same.

we now play about 20 m further up the pitch and get players regularly in the opposition penalty area.  We play more direct football and rarely recycle the ball to the goalie.  It is different to a la Cocu but still not good enough.  The squad isn't that much different but is probably set up better than it was

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13 minutes ago, JohnHarkes said:

It was rhetorical, not that I'm suggesting we're now lighting up the league playing irresistible football... but before this it was very bad. In fact we were so cack before I don't think any manger was going to come in and transform us into something we're not.

We have to start offering more going forward, but it's easier to convert draws into wins than it is losses.

It was bad yes but we haven't made the quantum leap in terms of performances that some posters would have you believe. 

The brand of football under Cocu was turgid it's now a dour, assemble an ultra defensive line up brand of football which then makes our attacking threat totally impotent as a result. So for me nothing has radically changed in that.

Still think we've missed a huge trick as that manner of setting the team out is fine if you're picking up points against better teams in the division but not if you're failing to beat at home 2 teams who are likely relegation candidates.

I do disagree with your point about any manager not being able to come in and transform us, a more competent and seasoned manager would be able to wring more out of this group of players then either Cocu or currently Rooney currently is. 

 

Edited by Tyler Durden
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We can get the ball forward quicker because we've got CKR up front to aim for, a player who wasn't fit enough to start games until after Rosenior/Rooney took over.

Similarly the return of Bielik gives us a much more solid midfield if and when we do lose the ball up top, again, this allows us to put more men forward.

We've been better defensively...? Sort of, sort of not. Wycombe were millimeters away from beating us with a shot off the crossbar bouncing onto the line, nothing to do with our defending. Brentford had 2 very easy chances, pretty much open goals & missed them, again nothing to do with our defending and we played a Stoke team in the midst of an injury crisis, their best attacker out & Fletcher (not a big goalscorer) returning from injury himself. Coventry I can't really remember much about tbh, probably a well deserved draw from a drab game. I can't remember any big chances for Milwall, so that's good.

I'm not saying that we would have all of a sudden gone massively more direct under Cocu or flooded the box with attackers, but even so it's much easier to do when you've actually got players to suit it.

People can slag off Cocu all they want, ultimately he failed and was sacked (this however doesn't mean that they have carte blanche to talk rubbish & follow through with their confirmation bias unchallenged... but honestly who can really be arsed to argue the toss anymore?) but his football was enough for us to finish 10th with a late season play off push after a disaster of a season. Further disasters happened over the summer with players leaving, or getting injured, & new signings not being ready to play for weeks on end.

Rooney has had the benefit of an almost fully fit squad (not now) but it's bloody obvious that we wouldn't start scoring loads of goals because simply put this squad doesn't have many goals in it, just as it should have been obvious that the lack of genuine quality was the bigger factor in Cocu's team not being a threat to the opposition than the style of play.

(By the time he left there was no doubt that Cocu couldn't and shouldn't continue, don't be thinking I believe he should still be here!)

It remains to be seen where Rooney's approach would get us over a season, he's got a better squad to choose from than the one which played the first 7-8 games, and hopefully with the addition of a proper Championship quality goalscorer & some real creativity in midfield it we can achieve some sort of form, preferably top 6 form because that might be what we need at this point.

Edited by Coconut
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36 minutes ago, Spanish said:

we now play about 20 m further up the pitch and get players regularly in the opposition penalty area.  We play more direct football and rarely recycle the ball to the goalie.  It is different to a la Cocu but still not good enough.  The squad isn't that much different but is probably set up better than it was

I've noticed very little difference - certainly not noticed a great deal of difference when it comes to playing "direct" football. For the most part we still tippy tappy around the edge of the penalty area before pushing it out wide to put a pointless cross into a mostly empty penalty area. I agree that we pass back to the keeper less than we did under Cocu, but that isn't where the problem is - the attacking players (the few that we actually play) still take the least risk averse option open to them virtually every time. Tom Lawrence is pretty much the only player who tries something different. Stopping constantly passing back to the keeper at every opportunity is not a big enough change for me to suggest the style of play is significantly different from what it was.

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