v Millwall (A) - Match Thread

[Lander]

What a great relief today

 

[jono]

24 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Which, with no small irony, is the precise reason many Millwall fans are using to defend their behaviour today. We can argue until the cows come home about whether or not the BLM movement is divisive and whether the gesture is subservient, insincere, or 'trite' but there's little argument that booing anti-racism initiatives most certainly is. Perhaps we'd do well to focus on the reasons the players are taking a knee, rather than the action itself lest the message get lost in the fugue of political debate?

Mate, I am with you one that. No doubt whatsoever. The basic intent is as sound as a bell. The Millwall fan thing was repugnant. No equivocation from me on that. 
 

I just prefer CKR doing his thing which is real, from him, from the heart,  of huge value - and a direct reaction to what went on. 
The knee started well, as an immediate global reaction to the US police/ Floyd story and wider issues of casual racism  .. it had validity and justification. .. For me though it’s lost it now. it’s become a subservient gesture to a certain sort of politics and attitude that go way beyond a fight against racism and for equality. 

CKR’s stance and reaction gets my total support .. it’s the real thing, personal, heartfelt and right. 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, jono said:

CKR’s stance and reaction gets my total support .. it’s the real thing, personal, heartfelt and right. 

Yes individual reactions are good, but what makes an impact is the overwhelming sight of everyone doing the same thing - hence 'taking a knee'.

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, jono said:

For me though it’s lost it now. it’s become a subservient gesture to a certain sort of politics and attitude that go way beyond a fight against racism and for equality. 

I respect your opinion buddy as we've discussed this before. All I can say is that as someone who is BAME myself, I love the sense that people care. When I was a kid I had it quite bad for quite an extended period of time. It was very hard to understand. As a grown up I have to say things have changed a lot. I suspect the fact that I'm a 16 stone lump now has something to do with that but I also genuinely believe that great strides have been made. I guess in the final analysis, we choose to see what we want, to an extent, but all I see is people of all creeds and colours coming together to say enough is enough and nothing more. I don't care one iota about any other motivations BLM may have other than to put a boot on the throat of racism and keep it there. 

[kevinhectoring]

35 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

End of the season. #easy

good solid #common sense RoyMac5, once again. Perhaps that's the answer. But there will be people who say it should continue. And when they do, it's very difficult for anyone to gainsay that. So perhaps it may go on and on.   

Personally I support it with the qualification that there are any number of other important issues that are fighting for airtime and money (sex slaves, child abuse, economic slavery, climate change  etc etc) and which may have suffered as a result of the particular focus on blm.

Anyway, a bit off topic - or maybe not given the Millwall connection ?

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I respect your opinion buddy as we've discussed this before. All I can say is that as someone who is BAME myself, I love the sense that people care.

You're a better man than me. i think it stinks of smoky disingenuous nonsense. It's a sign, why not hold it up.

[kevinhectoring]

37 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Not recently. Waggie's been poor. Today he was okay.

he's a fabulous impact sub, all that energy, muscle and movement coming on in the 70th minute against defenders who are tiring. That's his best role in this squad

[BondJovi]

1 hour ago, Rampage said:

Pity that we were not more prompt on moving Cocu out when it was clear that we were going nowhere fast. Mac3 was a masterstroke and Wayne will be a fast learner with him and his contacts. We have only relegation to dodge this season. So we may have time to build a promising side this season if we have a good Xmas window.

 

Maybe. Though you have to think what a difference having Bielik and CKR fit to start games makes. Hence the Bielik is the key thread!

I am reserving judgement before thinking Mac3 is a masterstroke!

However, one thing I always admired about Rooney was his desire and seeming will to win. If that has come back to him as a manager it can only be good for us. 

[jono]

11 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes individual reactions are good, but what makes an impact is the overwhelming sight of everyone doing the same thing - hence 'taking a knee'.

Fair enough Roy and it is a good point, but I have two reservations.

The first is that it just becomes a gesture and loses impact because it is done by rote 

The second is that BLM and those who claim to be the real BLM (and there are many coat tail hangers on ) have motives that go way beyond equality - like many extreme “rights” groups they have a twisted ideology that will assassinate your integrity if you don’t agree with their world view in its entirety. Wrong ! They need to be challenged, people can disagree without being demonised. There are subtleties in life but with their mindset it simply isn’t allowed. I can’t accept that or the moral censure that they declare they have a god given right to dispense. 

[Sean]

? Who put the ball in the racists' net

[LeedsCityRam]

46 minutes ago, Derby blood said:

Only 2000 Millwall fans, and they still make a negative impact, bloody idiots, a few seasons ago at pp. a women walked past a few Millwall, with her teenage son in a Derby hat, some idiot slapped him, should had gone over and slapped a few Wall, but the police came over and sent them on there way, trouble is everyone who goes to the Den, think they have to play up to there role of being Wall, and show everyone how hard they are, ridiculous really and time they grew up. 

Action against Millwall is well overdue by FA/EFL. Everytime their fans have their periodic incidents (violence, pitch encroachment, racism), their club bleat about how they're a community club, their improving record (presumably compared to 1985) & seem to escape with a slapped wrist time & time again.

They only play up to the stereotype because they're a nothing club. A spell playing behind closed doors & suspended points deduction might make the cretins think again.

Just re today, definitely heard the word 'monkey' shouted a couple of times second half. Couldnt make out the context but Im going to assume the worst.

[Comrade 86]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You're a better man than me. i think it stinks of smoky disingenuous nonsense. It's a sign, why not hold it up.

A lesson I'm still tying to learn is that confrontation only occasionally effects change, buddy! There one or two on here who I'd happily straighten out if I met them, but Jono isn't one of them. We don't agree on some stuff but I've had many interactions with him on the politics thread and I have a sense of who he is. Political differences aside, I view him as one of the good guys.

In any case, a partial concession is better than none at all. ?

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, jono said:

The second is that BLM and those who claim to be the real BLM (and there are many coat tail hangers on ) have motives that go way beyond equality - like many extreme “rights” groups they have a twisted ideology that will assassinate your integrity if you don’t agree with their world view in its entirety.

How many people do you think actually know that, and how many actually believe it? Poor excuse for a few extremists to railroad the meaning.

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

A lesson I'm still tying to learn is that confrontation only occasionally effects change, buddy! 

It's not a lesson I've learnt. I think that depending on how its done confrontation is the only way to effect change.

[jono]

13 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I respect your opinion buddy as we've discussed this before. All I can say is that as someone who is BAME myself, I love the sense that people care. When I was a kid I had it quite bad for quite an extended period of time. It was very hard to understand. As a grown up I have to say things have changed a lot. I suspect the fact that I'm a 16 stone lump now has something to do with that but I also genuinely believe that great strides have been made. I guess in the final analysis, we choose to see what we want, to an extent, but all I see is people of all creeds and colours coming together to say enough is enough and nothing more. I don't care one iota about any other motivations BLM may have other than to put a boot on the throat of racism and keep it there. 

And I respect yours. Way back I had a debate with someone else on here, it reminded me that your life story and attitudes  are shaped / influenced by your roots to a huge extent - if folk have different roots they don’t always see every perspective. No one perspective gives a perfect view. Yours is every bit as valid as mine. 
 

I feel a bit odd when racism is discussed .. I just see people. I notice differences of course  .. height, weight, ear size, skin colour but they are all kind of the same thing. Being racist is as bizarre to me as saying I don’t like tall people .. eh ? Why ? 

[Marriot Ram99]

5 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Poor @Marriott Ram99.

My posts are in a different category of class, can't compare league 1 plodders and Champions league tbh.  

[Rev]

Re the booing.

I thought it really odd neither Owen or Shaun referenced it, so wondered if I'd misheard?

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

4 minutes ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

My posts are in a different category of class, can't compare league 1 plodders and Champions league tbh.  

Bit harsh to refer to yourself as a league one plodder.

[Marriot Ram99]

Just now, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Bit harsh to refer to yourself as a league one plodder.

Well I put a S on the end of plodders to refer to all 3 of you.  Not bad being a league 1 plodder, after all that's what we might be seeing next season. 

[angieram]

1 hour ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Every team needs a 'water carrier'. Perhaps you don't notice as much of what he brings as you think. Also, quite hard to give an opinion on his performance today from radio commentary alone, if that's what has brought about your criticism?. Football is a squad game and there will always be role for a ball winner, especially in the Championship. He may not be a 'creative' player or add a lot in attacking terms, but what he does do well is break down opposition attacks then look for an achievable ball to one of ours who can do some damage. That's his role, pure and simple. Answer me this; if he's not 'thundering about making tackles' as you put it, who is? 

I agree and thought Shinnie did the dirty work very well today, breaking up play early on and not allowing Millwall to build up a head of steam when they were fresh. He earned the right for Bird to come on and play some football.