Does the recent decline show how important Keogh was?

[Ambitious]

I thought Keogh played ok last night, but their defensive system is a complete shambles. Edmundson is a big lad, but he shouldn't be allowed to outjump two defenders for that first goal. The second one: it's a dangerous system to play by them, even if we don't have much pace at the back, Waghorn is played onside by Duhaney who is a few steps behind Keogh and Sarr. If you give Waghorn the forward momentum then it's going to be hard to catch him, even if he's not the fastest player. 

Noticeable in the first half that Keogh did a number on Gregory, who could barely get a touch. I'm not entirely sure why people are so down on him, same with Holmes. Keogh was our best player in the decade 2010 decade, unquestionably, whilst Holmes was a lower value signing that showed some promise.

[TuffLuff]

I think we are missing him less now because the simple fact that the only way players improve is through game time. Partly because the partnerships become cemented but simply it’s being able to learn from a mistake and put it into practice.

Look at Wisdom now in comparison to when this discussion was first taking place. Cemented his partnerships with Byrne and Clarke, looks more comfortable on the ball in the CB position and really he’s just improving with every game.

The conversation shouldn’t be about Keogh (unless you’ve got a bit of axe to grind ofcourse), it should be that if you give a decent player the chance and time to improve it will pay off over time.

Give Wisdom the credit where it’s due. 

[Rammy03]

11 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I'm not entirely sure why people are so down on him, same with Holmes. Keogh was our best player in the decade 2010 decade, unquestionably, whilst Holmes was a lower value signing that showed some promise.

Because Keogh made that huge mistake at Wembley and Holmes downed tools 

[Sparkle]

3 hours ago, ramsbottom said:

I  think we could all tell who was the better player after 2 or 3 games.  It shows you how we as fans can over hype a player, especially if they're an academy product.  Bogle has the potential to be a fine player, and is very skilful, but every other department Byrne is a more accomplished player and has been our only consistent threat from the wings all season...

Bogle is doing very well in the premiership playing as a right wing back and ultimately will be the better player but we are very fortunate to have picked up Bryne 

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

Because Keogh made that huge mistake at Wembley and Holmes downed tools 

Keogh mucked up at Wembley but based on the game itself the midfielders and forwards mucked up a lot more and that’s not mentioning the manager 

[Rab a dab doo]

I thought Keogh look a very 'tired old man' last night both physically and metaphorically. 

Never really impacted or was part of game except for a few long pass and interceptions largely anonymous in  the game.    

No shouting or leading the team, no ' signature' long runs with ball out of defense or attacking the ball in box. 

[Warwick Ram]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

Because Keogh made that huge mistake at Wembley and Holmes downed tools 

It was saint Buxton and Forsyth who failed to deal with the ball by the corner flag and allowing the ball to be played across. Our fans conveniently forget that.

Keogh was the scapegoat because he was involved immediately before the goal. Oh and a special mention to our forwards who couldn’t break down a tired QPR defence or beat Robert Green. To blame Wembley on Keogh is very short sighted.

[Bob Gnarly]

1 hour ago, Ambitious said:

Noticeable in the first half that Keogh did a number on Gregory, who could barely get a touch. I'm not entirely sure why people are so down on him, same with Holmes. Keogh was our best player in the decade 2010 decade, unquestionably, whilst Holmes was a lower value signing that showed some promise.

I'd argue that he showed promise. He had the odd glimpse of a five minute spell where he looked marginally better than some of the players around him, but he was largely ineffective in his time here. That's just the truth. Never tore up any trees and never really looked like he would.

No player should ever down tools the way he did either.

Disrespectful to the club that was paying his wage to not put effort in and then go on to make fun of fans who questioned his attitude, only for them to be proven right in the end. 

[Wolfie20]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

Because Keogh made that huge mistake at Wembley and Holmes downed tools 

Re the Wembley mistake - fans should have been just as critical of Fozzie and Buxton but, generally speaking, weren't at the time and haven't been since. 

[DCFC Kicks]

31 minutes ago, Warwick Ram said:

It was saint Buxton and Forsyth who failed to deal with the ball by the corner flag and allowing the ball to be played across. Our fans conveniently forget that.

Keogh was the scapegoat because he was involved immediately before the goal. Oh and a special mention to our forwards who couldn’t break down a tired QPR defence or beat Robert Green. To blame Wembley on Keogh is very short sighted.

Also didn't Martin block our own shot on the goal line if I remember correctly? I've never watched the game back since.

[May Contain Nuts]

57 minutes ago, Warwick Ram said:

It was saint Buxton and Forsyth who failed to deal with the ball by the corner flag and allowing the ball to be played across. Our fans conveniently forget that.

Keogh was the scapegoat because he was involved immediately before the goal. Oh and a special mention to our forwards who couldn’t break down a tired QPR defence or beat Robert Green. To blame Wembley on Keogh is very short sighted.

What separates the greats from the also-rans is the ability to step up, to be the one who takes control of the situation,  even if (especially "If") others have failed before him, to be the one you can depend on at crucial moments in big games, to lead by example.

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you’ll be a Man, my son!" - Rudyard Kipling
"If you lose your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... that can't possibly be your fault, can it?" - Richard Keogh

Nobody forgets Forsyth or Buxton letting the cross in, nobody forgets the strikers failing to score -  they just don't use it as an excuse for Keogh failing to deal with the ball when it did get to him.

It's OK to admit that that the crucial error was his. It doesn't mean you're scapegoating him; it's just accepting that what happened, happened. No finger pointing elsewhere, no hard luck story, no ifs buts and maybes - we lost the game because Keogh 'cleared' it straight to Zamora in the 90th minute.

Accept it, deal with it, and stop pretending that everyone who's critical of Keogh in any way, shape or form is basing it on Wembley because they're not.

He's had an enormous amount of goodwill from the fans over the years, and an exhalted status given to him (and to be fair, he did earn it)  by those at the club past and present. A status he threw away.

[Rammy03]

53 minutes ago, Warwick Ram said:

Keogh was the scapegoat because he was involved immediately before the goal. Oh and a special mention to our forwards who couldn’t break down a tired QPR defence or beat Robert Green. To blame Wembley on Keogh is very short sighted.

No I totally agree, just generally that day at Wembley is the reason why people give Keogh a hard time

[The Key Club King]

3 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

I think we are missing him less now because the simple fact that the only way players improve is through game time. Partly because the partnerships become cemented but simply it’s being able to learn from a mistake and put it into practice.

Look at Wisdom now in comparison to when this discussion was first taking place. Cemented his partnerships with Byrne and Clarke, looks more comfortable on the ball in the CB position and really he’s just improving with every game.

The conversation shouldn’t be about Keogh (unless you’ve got a bit of axe to grind ofcourse), it should be that if you give a decent player the chance and time to improve it will pay off over time.

Give Wisdom the credit where it’s due. 

Wisdom has been a revelation since Rooney took over and I say that as a man who has always said that he is an average player on a high wage. I'd love to know what has turned Wisdom around. He has played quite a few games for us so I don't think it is just game time, though that definitely helps. There has clearly been a change in confidence and a couple of the commentators have mentioned that he is now one of the most vocal players we have. A cynic may point to the fact that his improvement falls in line with his contract coming to an end -or Kris Commons Syndrome as it is better known.  

[Steve How Hard?]

30 minutes ago, The Key Club King said:

Wisdom has been a revelation since Rooney took over and I say that as a man who has always said that he is an average player on a high wage. I'd love to know what has turned Wisdom around. He has played quite a few games for us so I don't think it is just game time, though that definitely helps. There has clearly been a change in confidence and a couple of the commentators have mentioned that he is now one of the most vocal players we have. A cynic may point to the fact that his improvement falls in line with his contract coming to an end -or Kris Commons Syndrome as it is better known.  

I think it is very cynical to think his form is down to his contact coming to an end. If I recall correctly, he was in very good form under Cocu prior to him being attacked.

It's testament to his character that he has mentally and physically fought his way back from that cowardly attack. I just hope there is enough in the coffers to be able to offer him a deserved new deal. There is no doubt his current form will have the vultures circling. 

[Day]

I miss a lot of people at the minute, but Keogh isn’t one of them.

Do I think we missed him when he should have took the taxi home? Yes.

Always had a mistake in him not just on the field, but was one of the best defenders we’ve had in years. Not sure I buy the theory he won 2 POTY awards for playing the most games, he won them on merit.

He’s moved on, we’ve moved on. Tell you what he looks like he’s aged a good 10 years whilst out with the injury.

[cannable]

49 minutes ago, The Key Club King said:

A cynic may point to the fact that his improvement falls in line with his contract coming to an end -or Kris Commons Syndrome as it is better known.  

Wisdom was playing well last season at centre-half as well though. 

Always thought that was harsh on Commons, as well. He had a direct hand in 24 goals during his first season with us and that was in a dogshit Derby side with only Hulse fit to lace his boots.

[Steve How Hard?]

5 minutes ago, David said:

I miss a lot of people at the minute, but Keogh isn’t one of them.

Do I think we missed him when he should have took the taxi home? Yes.

Always had a mistake in him not just on the field, but was one of the best defenders we’ve had in years. Not sure I buy the theory he won 2 POTY awards for playing the most games, he won them on merit.

He’s moved on, we’ve moved on. Tell you what he looks like he’s aged a good 10 years whilst out with the injury.

Good post,  pretty much sums up my take on it. I'm not surprised he's aged though. I bet a day doesn't go by where he doesn't regret that fateful night. 

I feel for him a bit as we’ve all done things we regret and he would have gone down as a club legend if he'd zigged instead of zagging that night. I'm still thankful to him for the service he gave us however it was a big mistake not taking the olive branch the club offered. The blame for that though lies with his greedy agent.  

I just hope we win any subsequent appeal to his unfair dismissal claim. That judgement could potentially damage the club more and that would taint his name forever if that was to occur. 

[bimmerman]

1 hour ago, Steve How Hard? said:

Good post,  pretty much sums up my take on it. I'm not surprised he's aged though. I bet a day doesn't go by where he doesn't regret that fateful night. 

I feel for him a bit as we’ve all done things we regret and he would have gone down as a club legend if he'd zigged instead of zagging that night. I'm still thankful to him for the service he gave us however it was a big mistake not taking the olive branch the club offered. The blame for that though lies with his greedy agent.  

I just hope we win any subsequent appeal to his unfair dismissal claim. That judgement could potentially damage the club more and that would taint his name forever if that was to occur. 

He's already tainted his name and legacy at this point though, the judgement won't make any difference 

[Steve How Hard?]

37 minutes ago, bimmerman said:

He's already tainted his name and legacy at this point though, the judgement won't make any difference 

Agreed he's already tainted his name, but for me, I can see that he's only human and has made a monumental mistake which given another chance he'd probably act differently. 

What would be unforgivable in my eyes is,  if his claim damaged us financially. We are teetering on the edge as it is. He like the rest of us needs to draw a line under it all but I think he's being driven by a money motivated agent. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

5 hours ago, DCFClks said:

Also didn't Martin block our own shot on the goal line if I remember correctly? I've never watched the game back since.

Wasn't on the goal line, but looked like it might have been sneaking in from Russell I think. Martin was about 8 yards out and running across and the shot seemed to hit his heel.