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Deep rooted problems


IslandExile
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I saw posts blaming Cocu for tonight, even before the thread was created saying the same.

Tosh. The problems are more deeply rooted than anything he did.

I do not want this to be a thread discussing Mel's legacy - there are enough of those. The one thing Mel is guilty of is backing his managers.

Clement and Pearson splashed the cash. That put us in a perilous position with FFP that ultimately led to the loss of the stadium and a transfer embargo that scuppered most of this pre-season.

We then had Rowett who was really short term, bringing in the old guys: Huddlestone, Davies etc.

The Lampard season gave us all a thrill, but also false hope. That season was carried on the shoulders of the three marvelous loanees. They masked the poor quality of the rest of the squad. Lampard's permanent buys - JoFlo, Malone - further restricted our ability to conduct transfers.

So, onto Cocu.....he was sold a raw deal. Apart from all of the crap he had to put up with (including both preseasons), he had no transfer budget. It's ok saying that you must build the team around the academy but you have to do that by supplementing those youngsters with quality experienced players.

Cocu was only able to bring Jozwiak in by selling two of the youngsters for magic beans. He got Duncan and Ibe for next to nothing because they're miles away from being fit enough to play. He couldn't keep Martin, again probably because of finances, so all we could afford was CKR.

The elephant in the room - Rooney. I do blame Mel for that - maybe it has attracted investment (though not yet materialised) but at what cost? Legendary player - in the past, not now. He is now a walking (because he barely runs) billboard for a gambling company. Takes up a place in the team - that could go to Sibley, Hector-Ingram, Holmes, my neighbour's grandmother's cat, anyone.

Back to Cocu. I think in the end his position was untenable. However, I cannot help wondering how different things may have been had he been given any kind of the budget his predecessors had - so he could balance youth with experience. We will never know. But, maybe we "threw the baby out with the bathwater".

Now, we are in very serious trouble. The squad we have are simply not good enough. I think that's true whether the coach/manager is Cocu, Rooney, Rosenior, McClaren or a commitee. We do not create chances, let alone score goals. We need better players.

That we do not have them is a consequence of years of poor spending.

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1 minute ago, IslandExile said:

The Lampard season gave us all a thrill, but also false hope. That season was carried on the shoulders of the three marvelous loanees. They masked the poor quality of the rest of the squad. Lampard's permanent buys - JoFlo, Malone - further restricted our ability to conduct transfers

I agree somewhat but lampards squad also had 2 quality players in every position. We had plenty of experience, know-how and leadership in that team. It wasn't all about the 3 loans. Bryson, Nugent, Keogh, Huddlestone, Johnson all not here anymore. The squad we have at the moment is so thin. Even bringing back the players out on loan like Marriott and jozefzoon would improve this team. We're just lacking so much. 

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Just now, Rammy03 said:

I agree somewhat but lampards squad also had 2 quality players in every position. We had plenty of experience, know-how and leadership in that team. It wasn't all about the 3 loans. Bryson, Nugent, Keogh, Huddlestone, Johnson all not here anymore. The squad we have at the moment is so thin. Even bringing back the players out on loan like Marriott and jozefzoon would improve this team. We're just lacking so much. 

That's true....but again, mostly aged players. Bryson, Nugent and Huddlestone not playing anymore. Johnson cost too much to keep and we have Bird, Shinnie in his position so we're not weakened by his departure. Keogh - 'nuff sed - but we miss his play, his leadership, his bringing the ball out.

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10 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I saw posts blaming Cocu for tonight, even before the thread was created saying the same.

Tosh. The problems are more deeply rooted than anything he did.

I do not want this to be a thread discussing Mel's legacy - there are enough of those. The one thing Mel is guilty of is backing his managers.

Clement and Pearson splashed the cash. That put us in a perilous position with FFP that ultimately led to the loss of the stadium and a transfer embargo that scuppered most of this pre-season.

We then had Rowett who was really short term, bringing in the old guys: Huddlestone, Davies etc.

The Lampard season gave us all a thrill, but also false hope. That season was carried on the shoulders of the three marvelous loanees. They masked the poor quality of the rest of the squad. Lampard's permanent buys - JoFlo, Malone - further restricted our ability to conduct transfers.

So, onto Cocu.....he was sold a raw deal. Apart from all of the crap he had to put up with (including both preseasons), he had no transfer budget. It's ok saying that you must build the team around the academy but you have to do that by supplementing those youngsters with quality experienced players.

Cocu was only able to bring Jozwiak in by selling two of the youngsters for magic beans. He got Duncan and Ibe for next to nothing because they're miles away from being fit enough to play. He couldn't keep Martin, again probably because of finances, so all we could afford was CKR.

The elephant in the room - Rooney. I do blame Mel for that - maybe it has attracted investment (though not yet materialised) but at what cost? Legendary player - in the past, not now. He is now a walking (because he barely runs) billboard for a gambling company. Takes up a place in the team - that could go to Sibley, Hector-Ingram, Holmes, my neighbour's grandmother's cat, anyone.

Back to Cocu. I think in the end his position was untenable. However, I cannot help wondering how different things may have been had he been given any kind of the budget his predecessors had - so he could balance youth with experience. We will never know. But, maybe we "threw the baby out with the bathwater".

Now, we are in very serious trouble. The squad we have are simply not good enough. I think that's true whether the coach/manager is Cocu, Rooney, Rosenior, McClaren or a commitee. We do not create chances, let alone score goals. We need better players.

That we do not have them is a consequence of years of poor spending.

Spot on 👍

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baalocks, just because there's alot of people to blame doesn't absolve them all of blame . Morris is to blame mostly , current players need to take responsibility but Cocu is also largely at fault for implement inadequate tactics for this level and making us play like turgid robots. Nothing about deep rooted problems just a collateral set of baalocks with alot of individuals largely to blame with an element of misfortune also in there. 

Edited by Marriot Ram99
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12 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I saw posts blaming Cocu for tonight, even before the thread was created saying the same.

Tosh. The problems are more deeply rooted than anything he did.

I do not want this to be a thread discussing Mel's legacy - there are enough of those. The one thing Mel is guilty of is backing his managers.

Clement and Pearson splashed the cash. That put us in a perilous position with FFP that ultimately led to the loss of the stadium and a transfer embargo that scuppered most of this pre-season.

We then had Rowett who was really short term, bringing in the old guys: Huddlestone, Davies etc.

The Lampard season gave us all a thrill, but also false hope. That season was carried on the shoulders of the three marvelous loanees. They masked the poor quality of the rest of the squad. Lampard's permanent buys - JoFlo, Malone - further restricted our ability to conduct transfers.

So, onto Cocu.....he was sold a raw deal. Apart from all of the crap he had to put up with (including both preseasons), he had no transfer budget. It's ok saying that you must build the team around the academy but you have to do that by supplementing those youngsters with quality experienced players.

Cocu was only able to bring Jozwiak in by selling two of the youngsters for magic beans. He got Duncan and Ibe for next to nothing because they're miles away from being fit enough to play. He couldn't keep Martin, again probably because of finances, so all we could afford was CKR.

The elephant in the room - Rooney. I do blame Mel for that - maybe it has attracted investment (though not yet materialised) but at what cost? Legendary player - in the past, not now. He is now a walking (because he barely runs) billboard for a gambling company. Takes up a place in the team - that could go to Sibley, Hector-Ingram, Holmes, my neighbour's grandmother's cat, anyone.

Back to Cocu. I think in the end his position was untenable. However, I cannot help wondering how different things may have been had he been given any kind of the budget his predecessors had - so he could balance youth with experience. We will never know. But, maybe we "threw the baby out with the bathwater".

Now, we are in very serious trouble. The squad we have are simply not good enough. I think that's true whether the coach/manager is Cocu, Rooney, Rosenior, McClaren or a commitee. We do not create chances, let alone score goals. We need better players.

That we do not have them is a consequence of years of poor spending.

Nail on the head mate

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Cocu inherited a meh team that needed boosting after the loss of Mount, Tomori and Wilson

We did nothing. He can take the blame for standing still and becoming this dull passive team with no life in it. The most lively thing to happen was a car crash.

But yes, the events of previous seasons lead to Cocu inheriting a bit of a mess.

Lampard got us to the play off final so it wasn't the mess we are in now

Edited by Alpha
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6 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Johnson cost too much to keep and we have Bird, Shinnie in his position

That's exactly the problem. We're cost-cutting and getting worse quality. Bird isn't up to it I'm afraid and shinnie is no Johnson. The squad has been severely weakened

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Cocu is at fault for rubbish tactics & style of play but it can't be good when the chairman brings in two people who want your job in Rooney & Rosenior. 

Its like cocu & his team v the team we have now. 

Should hace got rid if the lot. Drawn a line under it & got someone proper in 

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As I’ve said before, relegation has been coming for a while now. Every transfer window we come out with a worse squad than we started with. That sort of trajectory only leads one way, no matter who’s in charge. Don’t think there’s been many clubs who’ve recruited as poorly as us. Maybe Man Utd. It’s truly been an absolute shambles. Such a lack of strategy and imagination. We never seem to fix the problems in the squad, until we reach the point now where pretty much the whole squad is a problem. 

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1 hour ago, IslandExile said:

I saw posts blaming Cocu for tonight, even before the thread was created saying the same.

Tosh. The problems are more deeply rooted than anything he did.

I do not want this to be a thread discussing Mel's legacy - there are enough of those. The one thing Mel is guilty of is backing his managers.

Clement and Pearson splashed the cash. That put us in a perilous position with FFP that ultimately led to the loss of the stadium and a transfer embargo that scuppered most of this pre-season.

We then had Rowett who was really short term, bringing in the old guys: Huddlestone, Davies etc.

The Lampard season gave us all a thrill, but also false hope. That season was carried on the shoulders of the three marvelous loanees. They masked the poor quality of the rest of the squad. Lampard's permanent buys - JoFlo, Malone - further restricted our ability to conduct transfers.

So, onto Cocu.....he was sold a raw deal. Apart from all of the crap he had to put up with (including both preseasons), he had no transfer budget. It's ok saying that you must build the team around the academy but you have to do that by supplementing those youngsters with quality experienced players.

Cocu was only able to bring Jozwiak in by selling two of the youngsters for magic beans. He got Duncan and Ibe for next to nothing because they're miles away from being fit enough to play. He couldn't keep Martin, again probably because of finances, so all we could afford was CKR.

The elephant in the room - Rooney. I do blame Mel for that - maybe it has attracted investment (though not yet materialised) but at what cost? Legendary player - in the past, not now. He is now a walking (because he barely runs) billboard for a gambling company. Takes up a place in the team - that could go to Sibley, Hector-Ingram, Holmes, my neighbour's grandmother's cat, anyone.

Back to Cocu. I think in the end his position was untenable. However, I cannot help wondering how different things may have been had he been given any kind of the budget his predecessors had - so he could balance youth with experience. We will never know. But, maybe we "threw the baby out with the bathwater".

Now, we are in very serious trouble. The squad we have are simply not good enough. I think that's true whether the coach/manager is Cocu, Rooney, Rosenior, McClaren or a commitee. We do not create chances, let alone score goals. We need better players.

That we do not have them is a consequence of years of poor spending.

I was all for the Cocu project but another perspective is if he had the strength of a true leader he would never had let the Rooney stuff happen. He was dealt a crap hand but all of the crap stuff did happen under his leadership and regardless of how much I, you or anybody liked him it all happened on his watch. My view is that his vision was good but for whatever reason he wasn’t t assertive enough to make the club totally his. That might be the fault of Morris but if he was guilty of anything he struck me as being too ambivalent and forgiving of all the crap that went on around him. Real leaders don’t stand for that and that also includes Morris and Pearce.

Edited by Orphanram
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Tonight is the first time in a long time where I've just felt completely despondent. It's my fault for being a grown ass man and letting something I can't control (Derby's results) really affect my mood. I've spent most of my evening driving and the same thoughts were going through my head.

This team is full of proven players at this level and some of the best prospect available anywhere in academy football. The quality of this team doesn't align with the position of the club. I can agree to some extent that the players may not be quite up to what I thought they were, but my god the absolute lowest this squad of players should be is midtable, lower midtable with the most conservative of advice. 

The preparation coming into the season, actually after Covid, has been beyond catastrophic. I like Cocu, but the preparation of this season will undoubtedly go into the history books as perhaps one of our worst ever. This season is in danger of becoming an historic one for all the wrong reasons, ironically the academy team look like they could win the U23 Premier League at the same time. How does something like that happen? It can only be down to a complete mismanagement of everything at first team level - and I mean absolutely everything. 

We aren't run as a professional outfit anymore and Mel Morris has done some good things for this club, but look at the situation we found ourselves in now? I really couldn't care less if a takeover is near, we absolutely need him to take some professional accountability and help stop this club going into division 3 for the second(?) time in its history. Rosenior, Rooney... what a complete and utter farce that is turning out to be. It needs addressing. I don't think Rooney is the worst player in the world, but he's the highest paid footballer in the Championship with far too much influence - he's been absolutely pivotal to putting this club at the bottom of the Championship. It's such a shame that a player of his standing is providing performances like this - as a manager this situation couldn't have been any worse for him. Derby fans, largely, can't stand the bloke anymore and this stain on his CV will certainly hinder the next move in his career considerably. 

We need to run this club like a business, not a video game. In order to get out of this cataclysmic tailspin, we need to start taking ourselves serious and understand the severity of the situation. We absolutely need a manager who will come in and command the respect of the players. We have very good young players in our team who are entrusting this club to do the best for their careers - whatever we're doing now is absolutely not the answer. All I ask is that we stop with the off-the-field sideshow, reduce the distractions and start running this club like a professional outfit. The gimmicks, the nonsense... the noise needs to completely stop until this club, that is at the heart of so many people going through a tough time this year, is safe of relegation. 

The PR - the forced training photos of players laughing - all needs to come to a halt. It's not doing anyone any favours. This four man managerial unit needs to come to a stop as of tomorrow morning, regardless of what we have to do in the meantime, we simply can't move forward in this fashion. 

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The more I think about it, the more I think about relegation, the more positives I could take out of going down. It would be a proper reset button, to eradicate the appalling recruitment we've had since Mel Morris was involved in the club. Our academy is good enough to take the club forward but I think we would need to take the ultimate step back to actually see the real benefits of that investment. 

I thought when Cocu was hired that we would finally be gone of the player power mentality behind the scenes at the football club. What showed me tonight is that Rooney is an egotistical man who still thinks he's the best player in the league. He turned in one of the worst performances from a captain I can remember for some time. As a co manager, he should have done the right thing and took himself off with at least 30 minutes to go. He offered nothing, he influenced nothing. We're trying to fit a player into the team who's more than likely retiring at the end of the season. I'm all for using Rooney's playing experience, but for some idiotic reason, I feel like we're building a team to suit him. Which is wrong. It's a team game. Rooney needs to stop thinking about his own career aspirations for one second and think about the team balance. I dont care if it's Rooney, if you're not pulling your weight, you need to be treated the same as any other player and go and sit on the bench, for playing awful. The team and the club need to stop putting this guy on a golden pedestal. The novelty has worn off, we are in a fight for survival. But nobody at the club has the guts to say anything.

I cant wait for Rooney to retire at the end of the season. I know it seems we are using him as a scapegoat. I think more supporters are realising that his awful performances are a big part of dragging this team down the gutter. If Rooney seriously wants to become Derby manager, get his ass on that bench and stop playing football.

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Thing with Rooney is, he could still be useful, starting occaionally or making sub appearences - much as I'm not a fan of him, especially this season, he played pretty well against Bristol, but in a sane club, he'd have been rested tonight and not played badly for 90 minutes.

The having to play him every match is clearly an issue and has been since lockdown.

But the OP is right, this season has been years in the making. Mel's run out of rabbits in his hat, Rooney was the last one he had.

 

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I see no positives in going down.

In fact I think it’s more likely to lead to back-to-back relegations.

It’s the manner in which the club are self-destructing. There is no leadership at any level. From the boardroom down to the sidelines.

Relegation to League 1 can be a blessing in disguise for some clubs.

Norwich, Leicester, Southampton, Sheffield United and Leeds are your prime examples of clubs who channelled that disappointment into a positive reset.

But the way we are going, I am honestly not sure we even have the promise of that to look forward to.

We are having the kind of season and following the kind of trajectory that needs strong leadership to reverse. We are too busy polishing Rooney’s boots. It’s a really sad state of affairs.

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