A Kamil is a horse designed by committee

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Rev said:

Maybe they did the risk/reward analysis, and Martin fell the wrong side of it?

Maybe they did. Maybe the deal wasn't good enough. Maybe Martin wanted a change.

But they had from last January when Martin became a free agent to line up other options. What did we get? Colin.

[Rev]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Maybe they did. Maybe the deal wasn't good enough. Maybe Martin wanted a change.

But they had from last January when Martin became a free agent to line up other options. What did we get? Colin.

It's like Covid never happened. 

For all we know, Martin could have indicated he'd sign any proposed contract we were offering, then changed his mind once Bristol offered more.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, Rev said:

It's like Covid never happened. 

For all we know, Martin could have indicated he'd sign any proposed contract we were offering, then changed his mind once Bristol offered more.

And still we had NO fall back?

[IslandExile]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

And still we had NO fall back?

I don't know but could that be in part because Mel wasn't willing to put in any more cash than necessary to keep us ticking over.

Maybe, he thought there'd be incoming investment before now (the Dell deal).

There was also the restrictions of the transfer embargo.

We only managed to bring Jozwiak in by selling Bogle and Lowe.

Decent strikers cost money.

[Ellafella]

7 minutes ago, Rev said:

Maybe they did the risk/reward analysis, and Martin fell the wrong side of it?

Maybe they thought his last deal at £5m over 4 seasons, for the return of 12 league goals in 64 appearances in a Derby shirt was poor VFM?

Maybe they saw his contribution lessening now he's 32 years old? 

Maybe they took his ongoing health issues into consideration?

Maybe, just maybe, Chris wanted to leave the club at all costs, and nothing we offered him would change his mind?

 

1. If he did fall the wrong side of it, they got the analysis wrong because the other risk failed too!

2. His stats were the result of being loaned out by the Club. He finished top scorer last season and ran the game at Sheff Wed with 2 assists and a goal - March 2020. 
3. See 2 above.

4. Seems to be doing okay at Bristol City. And ask their manager about his contribution. See his quote after CM’s winner v Cardiff. 
5. CM on record as not wanting to leave and met Cocu on numerous occasions to sort terms. 
 

You’re turning this into a CM thread when it’s not about CM. It’s about the Groupthink mentality that characterised Cocu-ism and his close court of coaches. 

[Rev]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

And still we had NO fall back?

I assume the fall back was already in the squad. Martin's not particularly tall, doesn't flick headers on etc, just relied on his technique from his head down, to flick the ball around corners or lay the ball off to surrounding players.

In short, nothing that Rooney couldn't do.

[Millenniumram]

45 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Agree with your entire post @Millenniumram. But I wonder how you equate it with your pro stance for a DoF in that thread.

You see, I think having a DoF and a manager is where there could be conflicts over decision making - and that's been the case at various clubs... Spurs, Everton and Arsenal in recent times.

Making the big calls tactically and making the big calls with regard to recruitment are very different imo. The DOF aligns more with my point about having “different skillsets”. Recruitment should be a totally different department for me, but I appreciate I’m on the path less trodden in that regard.

Obviously there’s potential for things to go wrong with a DOF. Not least if you appoint one who’s just a bit crap... ahem, Chris Evans. And you obviously have to make sure your Manager and DOF are aligned in terms of how they want to take the club forward. That way decisions made will be agreed by all parties.

[i-Ram]

7 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

You have no evidence for that. It’s pure surmisation on your part. And even if that was the case, Cocu and his coaches should have laid the impact at MM’s door and abrogated responsibility for the worst case scenario which is the outcome that resulted. Instead, they were hoisted by their own petard and guilty of naïveté. 

But you have no evidence for your position either. You have no idea what conversations Cocu had with Morris regarding the players he wanted, nor whether he did actually present a beautifully crafted Risk Assessment document clearly outlining the impact at MM’s door and abrogated responsibility for the worst case scenario ?

What we can be pretty certain of is the fact that the club currently has very little income, and that Morris does not have funds that he can or wants to inject into the club. Hence the recent round of short term financing with Gabay, then MSD (Dell), and the imminent sale of the club to Sheikh Khaled.   

[Ellafella]

15 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Maybe they did. Maybe the deal wasn't good enough. Maybe Martin wanted a change.

But they had from last January when Martin became a free agent to line up other options. What did we get? Colin.

Absolutely. Too little too late due to a vacuum of leadership.

[Ellafella]

3 minutes ago, Rev said:

I assume the fall back was already in the squad. Martin's not particularly tall, doesn't flick headers on etc, just relied on his technique from his head down, to flick the ball around corners or lay the ball off to surrounding players.

In short, nothing that Rooney couldn't do.

Maybe. I think we’ve stuck Rooney up there but haven’t seen him try and play the CM type game. Then again, 20 minutes is all he got before it was decided to drop him deep again. 

[IslandExile]

Just now, Millenniumram said:

Making the big calls tactically and making the big calls with regard to recruitment are very different imo. The DOF aligns more with my point about having “different skillsets”. Recruitment should be a totally different department for me, but I appreciate I’m on the path less trodden in that regard.

Obviously there’s potential for things to go wrong with a DOF. Not least if you appoint one who’s just a bit crap... ahem, Chris Evans. And you obviously have to make sure your Manager and DOF are aligned in terms of how they want to take the club forward. That way decisions made will be agreed by all parties.

Yeah. I'm just thinking Pochettino might still be at Tottenham had he had more say on transfers - and they may have been more successful.

In the DoF thread, and apologies for not posting this there, it was argued that a DoF would give continuity when manager turnover appears so frequent. Well, it would be difficult to achieve harmony in such a scenario.

[Millenniumram]

Just now, IslandExile said:

Yeah. I'm just thinking Pochettino might still be at Tottenham had he had more say on transfers - and they may have been more successful.

In the DoF thread, and apologies for not posting this there, it was argued that a DoF would give continuity when manager turnover appears so frequent. Well, it would be difficult to achieve harmony in such a scenario.

Maybe, but I think a lot of that was Daniel Levy meddling, rather than a problem with the DOF model. Very hard to tell from the outside. 

It’s not an easy thing to implement I agree, you have to make sure every manager is perfectly suit, but I still maintain it’s better in the long run. It’s a set up Man City use, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see it here.

[Rev]

8 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

1. If he did fall the wrong side of it, they got the analysis wrong because the other risk failed too!

2. His stats were the result of being loaned out by the Club. He finished top scorer last season and ran the game at Sheff Wed with 2 assists and a goal - March 2020. 
3. See 2 above.

4. Seems to be doing okay at Bristol City. And ask their manager about his contribution. See his quote after CM’s winner v Cardiff. 
5. CM on record as not wanting to leave and met Cocu on numerous occasions to sort terms. 
 

You’re turning this into a CM thread when it’s not about CM. It’s about the Groupthink mentality that characterised Cocu-ism and his close court of coaches. 

It wasn't me who bought Chris Martin and his walking away from Derby into this debate.

You're right about moving away from the topic though, so I'll desist from further comment here.

[Ellafella]

3 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

But you have no evidence for your position either. You have no idea what conversations Cocu had with Morris regarding the players he wanted, nor whether he did actually present a beautifully crafted Risk Assessment document clearly outlining the impact at MM’s door and abrogated responsibility for the worst case scenario ?

What we can be pretty certain of is the fact that the club currently has very little income, and that Morris does not have funds that he can or wants to inject into the club. Hence the recent round of short term financing with Gabay, then MSD (Dell), and the imminent sale of the club to Sheikh Khaled.   

So you didn’t answer the points that I raised about affording to be bottom of the League @i-RamAnd I do have evidence because we failed to manage the risk. QED. Had Cocu done what I suggested MM would not have been able to mutually agree that it’s time he left because Cocu would’ve been able to point out the invidious position MM put him in and that would have cost MM £4m. Note that I don’t post silly emoticons “as if” I’ve made a compelling case @i-Ram as I give the counterpoint the respect it deserves but I do see a pattern that you resort to that when you sense the Terra firma slipping away. 

[uttoxram75]

@Duracell get your @rse back here and sort your thread out.

 

[Ellafella]

4 minutes ago, Rev said:

It wasn't me who bought Chris Martin and his walking away from Derby into this debate.

You're right about moving away from the topic though, so I'll desist from further comment here.

Ok @RevIt’s about CM only insofar as he was #1 striker at Derby County and involved in a critical chain that spiralled down to where we are now that I believe illustrates the shallow thinking that GroupCocu engaged in. But it’s not about CM the personality. Lose your best striker by all means but bloody make sure you have a sure-fire replacement otherwise risk a number 9 shirt with nobody to adequately fill it. 

[Jourdan]

An interim coaching team? Four interim managers?

That suggests to me we have a lot of contributors but no real natural leaders and a muddled hierarchy behind the scenes.

If things go badly, you can hide behind being part of a team.

It seems we have a lot of people who want to protect their own interests and don’t want to put their reputations on the line and take some responsibility.

We should have given it to Wassall. He’s done the role before and wasn’t afraid to front up and face the situation head on.

[Ellafella]

3 hours ago, Duracell said:

Ignore the pun, this thread isn't about Jozwiak at all, but the amount of leaders we have.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54959979

With Wayne Rooney, Liam Rosenior, Shay Given and Justin Walker taking charge against Bristol, it's struck me how absurdly top-heavy the club has been with coaches.

That's four interim managers. If most clubs lost three first team coaches, they wouldn't have any realistic internal candidates left to take charge without dipping into the academy.

We also have Wassall who could take charge. Bird and Davies have also been captain, and I've even heard the latter suggested as a possible coach!

My question is - do we need to streamline the coaching staff?

In my opinion, Cocu or not, I still think we have a wider problem: too many cooks in the kitchen. We won't see leadership until we have fewer leaders.

Btw @Duracellcongrats on managing to get one of the most enduring quotes of all time into a thread so adroitly. Ironically the original quote may endure longer than the product which spawned it. And also underline the most glaring issue at the heart of GroupCocu. Not only did it produce inept decision-making but it also clouded the times when they got it right eg Sheff Wed away last March followed by Blackburn at home. Some say COVID intervened but that isn’t the cause of the problem merely just some intervening random noise. 

[Ellafella]

5 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

An interim coaching team? Four interim managers?

That suggests to me we have a lot of contributors but no real natural leaders and a muddled hierarchy behind the scenes.

If things go badly, you can hide behind being part of a team.

It seems we have a lot of people who want to protect their own interests and don’t want to put their reputations on the line and take some responsibility.

We should have given it to Wassall. He’s done the role before and wasn’t afraid to front up and face the situation head on.

Bullseye. Leadership takes courage but without courage, there is no leadership. 

[i-Ram]

3 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

So you didn’t answer the points that I raised about affording to be bottom of the League @i-RamAnd I do have evidence because we failed to manage the risk. QED. Had Cocu done what I suggested MM would not have been able to mutually agree that it’s time he left because Cocu would’ve been able to point out the invidious position MM put him in and that would have cost MM £4m. Note that I don’t post silly emoticons “as if” I’ve made a compelling case @i-Ram as I give the counterpoint the respect it deserves but I do see a pattern that you resort to that when you sense the Terra firma slipping away. 

Why don’t you write in plain English?

I really don’t feel the ground is slipping away from me.  If I am right, the consequences that you outlined pretty much all fall at the door of Morris not Cocu. I also think you are making things up to suit your position regarding Cocu’s parting.

My instinct is that even though Morris has made a pigs ear of the finances, he wanted to do the honourable thing. Cocu followed his brief which was to slash and burn costs/squad size, and to bring in the kids. Morris probably would have liked to have supported him more this window on the basis he has proved himself quite astute as to who to buy/sell. There just wasn’t enough money available. So Morris wouldn’t have wanted to sack Cocu, nor I doubt did he want someone else to do it instead of him (post sale). They have parted amicably, and on negotiated terms, because I suspect they had a very good relationship and mutual respect for each other. Morris got Cocu at the wrong time, which is a great shame for many.