Spanish 3,370 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 On 03/11/2020 at 08:15, Tombo said: Just out of interest, does anyone feel that they haven't forgiven him for joinersgate yet? I think we're mostly unanimous in saying we've moved past it all? probably not when you read the Keogh posts. People make mistakes, stupid mistakes Link to post Share on other sites
Ted McMinn Football Genius 2,825 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Spanish said: probably not when you read the Keogh posts. People make mistakes, stupid mistakes People do make mistakes, we all have done and still do from time to time. The difference is we get punished for those mistakes one way or another, we don’t take the matter to court and want rewarding for those mistakes. Keogh was on a reported £30k per week (ridiculous in its self) but gets award £2m. The other 2 we dealt with and took their punishment as most of us would. Not RK and for that I’ve no sympathy for him and never will, the club offered him new terms which he rejected and then he takes us to court he’s a right royalTW@ SIXTEEN AGAIN, Gee SCREAMER !!, Coconut and 7 others 4 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Spanish 3,370 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 8 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said: People do make mistakes, we all have done and still do from time to time. The difference is we get punished for those mistakes one way or another, we don’t take the matter to court and want rewarding for those mistakes. Keogh was on a reported £30k per week (ridiculous in its self) but gets award £2m. The other 2 we dealt with and took their punishment as most of us would. Not RK and for that I’ve no sympathy for him and never will, the club offered him new terms which he rejected and then he takes us to court he’s a right royalTW@ Ted you have misunderstood. There are a number on the Keogh page that complain how badly he was treated and the other should have been sacked rather than him. Although as a player I always thought quite highly of him, but his behaviour that night as the captain was unforgivable and he was rightly sacked. I don't think some have forgiven the club for keeping Tom and have not forgiven Tom for his involvement Coconut and Ted McMinn Football Genius 2 Link to post Share on other sites
bucktwo 393 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Its his involvement on the field of play that I can't forgive him for. MuespachRam, sheeponacid, Ted McMinn Football Genius and 4 others 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Ted McMinn Football Genius 2,825 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 6 minutes ago, Spanish said: Ted you have misunderstood. There are a number on the Keogh page that complain how badly he was treated and the other should have been sacked rather than him. Although as a player I always thought quite highly of him, but his behaviour that night as the captain was unforgivable and he was rightly sacked. I don't think some have forgiven the club for keeping Tom and have not forgiven Tom for his involvement Apologies @Spanish 🤦🏻♂️😂😂 Spanish 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Sparkle 6,258 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 It’s his performances over several seasons that disappoints me - he has ability but is a very long way from being consistent with decent performances - occasional yes but we need more and it’s never looked like we will get it so if there is an opportunity to get a decent return on him we should be selling him to improve on him ( we may now need the money for other things) bucktwo 1 Link to post Share on other sites
nottingram 3,767 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, Sparkle said: It’s his performances over several seasons that disappoints me - he has ability but is a very long way from being consistent with decent performances - occasional yes but we need more and it’s never looked like we will get it so if there is an opportunity to get a decent return on him we should be selling him to improve on him ( we may now need the money for other things) I think at this level, when you are looking at wingers then they are probably either consistently very average or are inconsistent with lots of ability. If you had one who was consistently excellent then they would not be at this level for very long. I think (one of) Lawrence’s issue(s) is he has quite a languid style. I don’t think he is lazy but at times his efforts are not always in the right places. Compare it to Jozwiak who I also think is a little inconsistent but he is much busier looking. I would wager if you compared their running stats there’d not be too much difference (I might be wrong). I can forgive inconsistency if the player is always trying and I do think Lawrence is. On the whole I like him. I like that he plays with a chip on his shoulder and can be aggressive and I like it when he wins us a game on his own every so often. But I can also accept that isn’t for everyone. Ideal situation would be to have 3-4 first team level wingers who can rotate in and out of games when needed as we did during 2013-14 but I’m not sure the finances are in a position to allow that. GangwayD, mike93rh, Andrew3000 and 4 others 4 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Premier ram 1,918 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, nottingram said: I think at this level, when you are looking at wingers then they are probably either consistently very average or are inconsistent with lots of ability. If you had one who was consistently excellent then they would not be at this level for very long. I think (one of) Lawrence’s issue(s) is he has quite a languid style. I don’t think he is lazy but at times his efforts are not always in the right places. Compare it to Jozwiak who I also think is a little inconsistent but he is much busier looking. I would wager if you compared their running stats there’d not be too much difference (I might be wrong). I can forgive inconsistency if the player is always trying and I do think Lawrence is. On the whole I like him. I like that he plays with a chip on his shoulder and can be aggressive and I like it when he wins us a game on his own every so often. But I can also accept that isn’t for everyone. Ideal situation would be to have 3-4 first team level wingers who can rotate in and out of games when needed as we did during 2013-14 but I’m not sure the finances are in a position to allow that. Spot on mate , im a Lawrence fan , he can be frustrating but that applies to all wingers , still a place for him in the team , match winner on his day Eatonram and dcfc4ever 2 Link to post Share on other sites
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong 8,063 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 5 hours ago, Spanish said: Ted you have misunderstood. There are a number on the Keogh page that complain how badly he was treated and the other should have been sacked rather than him. Although as a player I always thought quite highly of him, but his behaviour that night as the captain was unforgivable and he was rightly sacked. I don't think some have forgiven the club for keeping Tom and have not forgiven Tom for his involvement Let's be honest here...if keogh hadnt sustained the injury he did and was able to return to the first team,there was no way he would have been sacked,he would have been disciplined as per the other two objects and would have lost the armband for a while. Finch and Rammy03 2 Link to post Share on other sites
James Pond 467 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 5 hours ago, Spanish said: Ted you have misunderstood. There are a number on the Keogh page that complain how badly he was treated and the other should have been sacked rather than him. Although as a player I always thought quite highly of him, but his behaviour that night as the captain was unforgivable and he was rightly sacked. I don't think some have forgiven the club for keeping Tom and have not forgiven Tom for his involvement RK the Captain should set an example a good one not a bad one, The things that led upto the drinking session ie should have been a golf day turned out to be a Lads on the lash day, Too much to repeat all the shananigans...But got what I believe is the right punishment. TL I believe he has mitigating circumstances, The loss of his Mother has had a huge negative effect on him, Drink is a good friend when your down, Drink mixed with your team mates is even better, Stupid to drive...but hay those who live in glass house et al. MB It's been well documented that he's not the sharpest tool in the box, Easily led, Most on here i'd guess know someone who is with a group of lads and is the follower and not the leader, It would appear with him throwing up in the Gents and all being filmed was a jolly jape. There's others involved who were part of the group at the Joiners but weren't involved in the Car Crash, But were still part of the party who acted up with MB. MB and TL had a price on their footballing ability, Where RK didn't. RK, MB both gone, TLs football ability...gone. Link to post Share on other sites
Spanish 3,370 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: Let's be honest here...if keogh hadnt sustained the injury he did and was able to return to the first team,there was no way he would have been sacked,he would have been disciplined as per the other two objects and would have lost the armband for a while. to be clear he was rightly sacked for making himself unfit to meet his work contract. He was not competent (some may say due to football inability but not me) and his employer offered him rehab on reduced salary which he rejected. There is something called constructive dismissal this was a constructive resignation. The reason I focused on the captain bit was in response to Ted which was an area where we both agree that I felt I needed to emphasise Edited January 22 by Spanish derbydaz22, Eatonram, Ted McMinn Football Genius and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
kevinhectoring 589 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 hours ago, Premier ram said: Spot on mate , im a Lawrence fan , he can be frustrating but that applies to all wingers , still a place for him in the team , match winner on his day I think the problem TL now has is Rooney - he’ll only pick players if he’s sure he’ll get 110% from them and I don’t think he’s always seen that from Tom. MuespachRam 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Spanish 3,370 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, kevinhectoring said: I think the problem TL now has is Rooney - he’ll only pick players if he’s sure he’ll get 110% from them and I don’t think he’s always seen that from Tom. maybe he is the manager he needs to meet his potential, I really hope so Rammy03 and RoyMac5 2 Link to post Share on other sites
If we shoot we might score 20 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, Premier ram said: Spot on mate , im a Lawrence fan , he can be frustrating but that applies to all wingers , still a place for him in the team , match winner on his day If only we knew when that day was......... Rampage, Hector was the best and Deej 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Rampage 6,566 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, If we shoot we might score said: If only we knew when that day was......... Some day Link to post Share on other sites
RadioactiveWaste 12,350 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 I just think he never really recovered from "not being Tom Ince" when Rowett brought him in in a lot of fans minds. If he could do what he can do 7-8 games out of 10 he'd probably make a low end prem career, but he just can't bring it consistently. But I think we are missing him in the team at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Brolly 3,722 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, Premier ram said: Spot on mate , im a Lawrence fan , he can be frustrating but that applies to all wingers , still a place for him in the team , match winner on his day Unfortunately his day comes about once every 10 games, the other 9 are like playing with 10 men and we can't afford to carry anyone with our current position on the off chance he produces the goods. Old Sawley Popside, Deej and ram1964 3 Link to post Share on other sites
bucktwo 393 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Any chance someone will bid for him in the next few days ??? Really hope so. Link to post Share on other sites
Tyler Durden 2,855 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, Spanish said: to be clear he was rightly sacked for making himself unfit to meet his work contract. He was not competent (some may say due to football inability but not me) and his employer offered him rehab on reduced salary which he rejected. There is something called constructive dismissal this was a constructive resignation. The reason I focused on the captain bit was in response to Ted which was an area where we both agree that I felt I needed to emphasise There's no such legal term as constructive resignation, there is as you rightly say one for constructive dismissal which is extremely hard to prove and only a small percentage of ETs find in the plaintiffs favour. In any company you cannot impose legally a variation in terms and conditions without given notice then the employee has the choice whether to accept these or work under duress. Keogh has a fixed contract which is far more powerful then normal employment contracts and unless there were specific terms imposed for Derby to vary this contract then it was illegal of Derby to do so. I'd have done exactly the same thing in Keoghs case and the 3 protagonists in the incident were not dealt with evenly or consistently by the club. Sith Happens, ram1964, Deej and 1 other 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites
ram1964 1,792 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 On 03/11/2020 at 07:15, Tombo said: Just out of interest, does anyone feel that they haven't forgiven him for joinersgate yet? I think we're mostly unanimous in saying we've moved past it all? Forgiven but not forgotten Link to post Share on other sites
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