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On 03/11/2020 at 08:15, Tombo said:

Just out of interest, does anyone feel that they haven't forgiven him for joinersgate yet? I think we're mostly unanimous in saying we've moved past it all?

probably not when you read the Keogh posts.  People make mistakes, stupid mistakes

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1 hour ago, Spanish said:

probably not when you read the Keogh posts.  People make mistakes, stupid mistakes

People do make mistakes, we all have done and still do from time to time. The difference is we get punished for those mistakes one way or another, we don’t take the matter to court and want rewarding for those mistakes. 
Keogh was on a reported £30k per week (ridiculous in its self) but gets award £2m. The other 2 we dealt with and took their punishment as most of us would. Not RK and for that I’ve no sympathy for him and never will, the club offered him new terms which he rejected and then he takes us to court he’s a right royalTW@

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8 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

People do make mistakes, we all have done and still do from time to time. The difference is we get punished for those mistakes one way or another, we don’t take the matter to court and want rewarding for those mistakes. 
Keogh was on a reported £30k per week (ridiculous in its self) but gets award £2m. The other 2 we dealt with and took their punishment as most of us would. Not RK and for that I’ve no sympathy for him and never will, the club offered him new terms which he rejected and then he takes us to court he’s a right royalTW@

Ted you have misunderstood.  There are a number on the Keogh page that complain how badly he was treated and the other should have been sacked rather than him.  Although as a player I always thought quite highly of him, but his behaviour that night as the captain was unforgivable and he was rightly sacked.  I don't think some have forgiven the club for keeping Tom and have not forgiven Tom for his involvement

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6 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Ted you have misunderstood.  There are a number on the Keogh page that complain how badly he was treated and the other should have been sacked rather than him.  Although as a player I always thought quite highly of him, but his behaviour that night as the captain was unforgivable and he was rightly sacked.  I don't think some have forgiven the club for keeping Tom and have not forgiven Tom for his involvement

Apologies @Spanish 🤦🏻‍♂️😂😂

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It’s his performances over several seasons that disappoints me - he has ability but is a very long way from being consistent with decent performances - occasional yes but we need more and it’s never looked like we will get it so if there is an opportunity to get a decent return on him we should be selling him to improve on him ( we may now need the money for other things)

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2 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

It’s his performances over several seasons that disappoints me - he has ability but is a very long way from being consistent with decent performances - occasional yes but we need more and it’s never looked like we will get it so if there is an opportunity to get a decent return on him we should be selling him to improve on him ( we may now need the money for other things)

I think at this level, when you are looking at wingers then they are probably either consistently very average or are inconsistent with lots of ability. If you had one who was consistently excellent then they would not be at this level for very long.

I think (one of) Lawrence’s issue(s) is he has quite a languid style. I don’t think he is lazy but at times his efforts are not always in the right places. Compare it to Jozwiak who I also think is a little inconsistent but he is much busier looking. I would wager if you compared their running stats there’d not be too much difference (I might be wrong). I can forgive inconsistency if the player is always trying and I do think Lawrence is. 

On the whole I like him. I like that he plays with a chip on his shoulder and can be aggressive and I like it when he wins us a game on his own every so often. But I can also accept that isn’t for everyone. Ideal situation would be to have 3-4 first team level wingers who can rotate in and out of games when needed as we did during 2013-14 but I’m not sure the finances are in a position to allow that. 

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3 hours ago, nottingram said:

I think at this level, when you are looking at wingers then they are probably either consistently very average or are inconsistent with lots of ability. If you had one who was consistently excellent then they would not be at this level for very long.

I think (one of) Lawrence’s issue(s) is he has quite a languid style. I don’t think he is lazy but at times his efforts are not always in the right places. Compare it to Jozwiak who I also think is a little inconsistent but he is much busier looking. I would wager if you compared their running stats there’d not be too much difference (I might be wrong). I can forgive inconsistency if the player is always trying and I do think Lawrence is. 

On the whole I like him. I like that he plays with a chip on his shoulder and can be aggressive and I like it when he wins us a game on his own every so often. But I can also accept that isn’t for everyone. Ideal situation would be to have 3-4 first team level wingers who can rotate in and out of games when needed as we did during 2013-14 but I’m not sure the finances are in a position to allow that. 

Spot on mate , im a Lawrence fan , he can be frustrating but that applies to all wingers , still a place for him in the team , match winner on his day

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5 hours ago, Spanish said:

Ted you have misunderstood.  There are a number on the Keogh page that complain how badly he was treated and the other should have been sacked rather than him.  Although as a player I always thought quite highly of him, but his behaviour that night as the captain was unforgivable and he was rightly sacked.  I don't think some have forgiven the club for keeping Tom and have not forgiven Tom for his involvement

Let's be honest here...if keogh hadnt sustained the injury he did and was able to return to the first team,there was no way he would have been sacked,he would have been disciplined as per the other two objects and would have lost the armband for a while.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Spanish said:

Ted you have misunderstood.  There are a number on the Keogh page that complain how badly he was treated and the other should have been sacked rather than him.  Although as a player I always thought quite highly of him, but his behaviour that night as the captain was unforgivable and he was rightly sacked.  I don't think some have forgiven the club for keeping Tom and have not forgiven Tom for his involvement

RK the Captain should set an example a good one not a bad one, The things that led upto the drinking session ie should have been a golf day turned out to be a Lads on the lash day, Too much to repeat all the shananigans...But got what I believe is the right punishment.

TL I believe he has mitigating circumstances, The loss of his Mother has had a huge negative effect on him, Drink is a good friend when your down, Drink mixed with your team mates is even better, Stupid to drive...but hay those who live in glass house et al.

MB It's been well documented that he's not the sharpest tool in the box, Easily led, Most on here i'd guess know someone who is with a group of lads and is the follower and not the leader, It would appear with him throwing up in the Gents and all being filmed was a jolly jape.

There's others involved who were part of the group at the Joiners but weren't involved in the Car Crash, But were still part of the party who acted up with MB.

MB and TL had a price on their footballing ability, Where RK didn't.

RK, MB both gone, TLs football ability...gone.

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1 hour ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Let's be honest here...if keogh hadnt sustained the injury he did and was able to return to the first team,there was no way he would have been sacked,he would have been disciplined as per the other two objects and would have lost the armband for a while.

 

 

 

to be clear he was rightly sacked for making himself unfit to meet his work contract.  He was not competent (some may say due to football inability but not me) and his employer offered him rehab on  reduced salary which he rejected.  There is something called constructive dismissal this was a constructive resignation.

The reason I focused on the captain bit was in response to Ted which was an area where we both agree that I felt I needed to emphasise

Edited by Spanish
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2 hours ago, Premier ram said:

Spot on mate , im a Lawrence fan , he can be frustrating but that applies to all wingers , still a place for him in the team , match winner on his day

I think the problem TL now has is Rooney - he’ll only pick players if he’s sure he’ll get 110% from them and I don’t think he’s always seen that from Tom. 

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I just think he never really recovered from "not being Tom Ince" when Rowett brought him in in a lot of fans minds.

If he could do what he can do 7-8 games out of 10 he'd probably make a low end prem career, but he just can't bring it consistently. But I think we are missing him in the team at the moment.

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3 hours ago, Premier ram said:

Spot on mate , im a Lawrence fan , he can be frustrating but that applies to all wingers , still a place for him in the team , match winner on his day

Unfortunately his day comes about once every 10 games, the other 9 are like playing with 10 men and we can't afford to carry anyone with our current position on the off chance he produces the goods. 

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3 hours ago, Spanish said:

to be clear he was rightly sacked for making himself unfit to meet his work contract.  He was not competent (some may say due to football inability but not me) and his employer offered him rehab on  reduced salary which he rejected.  There is something called constructive dismissal this was a constructive resignation.

The reason I focused on the captain bit was in response to Ted which was an area where we both agree that I felt I needed to emphasise

There's no such legal term as constructive resignation, there is as you rightly say one for constructive dismissal which is extremely hard to prove and only a small percentage of ETs find in the plaintiffs favour.

In any company you cannot impose legally a variation in terms and conditions without given notice then the employee has the choice whether to accept these or work under duress. Keogh has a fixed contract which is far more powerful then normal employment contracts and unless there were specific terms imposed for Derby to vary this contract then it was illegal of Derby to do so.

I'd have done exactly the same thing in Keoghs case and the 3 protagonists in the incident were not dealt with evenly or consistently by the club.

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