G STAR RAM Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, BIllyD said: Certain based upon what ? It would need to be a big turnaround for that to happen, I would also assume the sacking of PC and his team for example would have to been minimal cost. The legal fee for the court battle as well, I'm sure that wasn't very much. Rooney's wages, all covered by Bet32 ? I could go on, but I would be very surprised if we were anywhere near a profit, neither of us know. As I said the other day I am also confident that, without Covid, our losses would be at manageable levels. Having challenged 2 posters on it now, perhaps you could give us your estimate of what the situation would have been without Covid and how you have estimated it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 15 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Due to Covid. I'm certain we'd be posting a profit in the accounts for 20/21 otherwise. Wages should now be at a sustainable level in non-Covid times, less than 100% of income. The problem with that is that wages should be less than 50% of income if there's any chance at all of anything approaching a profit. My guess (and it is a guess) is that wages are way above that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritty Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 45 minutes ago, CornwallRam said: Have a read through the charge documents at Companies House What is market value? Administrator could do an auction. I guarantee you it won't be 60mn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC27 Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 9 hours ago, rammieib said: But an owner isn’t liable for going into his own pocket to pay the debts a club has. Mel isn’t liable, Derby County are, but if the club doesn’t have any cash it can’t pay. However that only ends up in either 1) club takes out loans (but right now why would you lend to a club that has lost money every year for god knows how long, 2) you sell the club if there is a buyer and we don’t have a legitimate buyer right now, 3) The owner invests more private equity which it doesn’t appear he wants to do possibly because he’s still living in hope of number two happening or 4) We go into administration. Now what you’re asking for is number three, but he’s not legally required to do that. It’s almost the given expectation of owning a football club together with the years of bad fiscal management to where we are now. Including the stadium Id wager he’s put £150m into Derby so our viewpoint seems to be - what’s a few million more.... Selfishly I hope he does. I don’t want the Sheikhs, I don’t trust them as they’ve obviously misled MM already. So lies are told before the transfer of ownership has even taken place. Then another buyer comes out of the woodwork somewhere who genuinely wants to buy a club but in Covid world, right now, why the hell would anyone want to buy a football club? Fgs how pedantic, look I know how a business works I know he’s not liable, if he wants to walk away he can. However he is morally liable. He should pay the players. He’s the one whose been running the club and offered them these contracts. My point is he should have paid them not decided he’s not paying them because there’s a pot of gold coming... one day maybe.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 So, any takers for date on when the fire sale of young talent will start? Plenty of names that'll be interesting; Knight Sibley Jozwiak Bird Bielik Buchannan Gordon Low ball offers that we have to accept incoming I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 17 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said: if the debt is 125 and the house is worth 200, it is not the case that on default the bank gets the property for 125. 75 needs to be returned to the borrower. Broadly speaking Nope, The bank just want their loot back, Sell the property...any monies left go to the house purchaser minus fees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: The problem with that is that wages should be less than 50% of income if there's any chance at all of anything approaching a profit. My guess (and it is a guess) is that wages are way above that. And whatever we have done to our wage bill, Covid and no crowds mean circa 10 million of income from gate receipts just never arrived. So Mel had been underwriting losses in any case .. and then a further 10 mill gets added on the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 22 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said: if the debt is 125 and the house is worth 200, it is not the case that on default the bank gets the property for 125. 75 needs to be returned to the borrower. Broadly speaking 2 minutes ago, James Pond said: Nope, The bank just want their loot back, Sell the property...any monies left go to the house purchaser minus fees forced sale rarely meets valuation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC27 Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Gaspode said: You’re missing the point (or don’t understand) that it’s not Mel’s responsibility to pay the wages - it’s the club that is responsible (the owner and the club are separate entities). Mel has been putting his own money in in order to keep the club afloat but with the takeover being delayed, Mel would be foolish to keep putting money in with almost no chance of getting it repaid (it would also take any pressure off the potential owners to complete the deal). However much you dislike Mel (and we all agree he’s made some huge mistakes during his tenure), it’s only his personal money being put into the club that has kept us afloat over the past couple of seasons. He’s now got to the point where he doesn’t want to/can’t keep doing that and so is selling up. The club is now (allegedly) taking a bridging loan to cover the wages - the alternative is most certainly administration as it’s still spending way more than it earns.... I’m not fella, I do understand it’s the clubs responsibility and legally Mel can walk away if he wishes, but morally that’s would be so wrong. He’s the one whose offered them contacts etc he should pay. It’s annoying that the takeover is taking longer than expected but he shouldn’t just remove his money one pay day. I have mentioned this before, football clubs shouldn’t be the same as any other business the owners shouldn’t be able to walk away, they should be made personally liable or money should be put in the club upfront to cover the contracts they offer. If they want a vanity project this should be the trade off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcfcreece1601 Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Got a lot of footballing accountant experts on here today ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 6 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: So, any takers for beta on when the fire sale of young talent will start? Plenty of names that'll be interesting; Knight Sibley Jozwiak Bird Bielik Buchannan Gordon Low ball offers that we have to accept incoming I suspect. Sad but I think you're probably right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 26 minutes ago, Gaspode said: Simple really- Mel is a fan and wanted the club to get in the PL....There were very few dissenting voices when we were splashing the cash and I’m pretty sure Mel would have done things differently if he could have foreseen the issues we are having now (though even then COVID would have screwed up any plans). Easy to take potshots with the benefit of hindsight..... but Gaspy, if he had executed is plan well then we would all be lauding him and rightly so. He shouldn't get a 'get out of jail free' card just because he tried. He is culpable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBr Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Just a question, but if Mel owns the ground where do we stand if we have to sell all of our assets - is the ground a separate entity from DCFC now that can't be sold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Just now, Spanish said: but Gaspy, if he had executed is plan well then we would all be lauding him and rightly so. He shouldn't get a 'get out of jail free' card just because he tried. He is culpable. I wasn't defending him - his mistakes have cost the club dearly - but criticsim has to be tempered by the fact that the vast majority of the fans wanted us to chase the dream - and that's what he's done.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, BIllyD said: Certain based upon what ? It would need to be a big turnaround for that to happen, I would also assume the sacking of PC and his team for example would have to been minimal cost. The legal fee for the court battle as well, I'm sure that wasn't very much. Rooney's wages, all covered by Bet32 ? I could go on, but I would be very surprised if we were anywhere near a profit, neither of us know. You can take 17/18 as a starting point if you want as that was the last set of accounts filed - a £1.1m group loss. Take away the stadium profit, adjust the wages, transfer profit, sponsorship increase, etc... and we're very close to £0 Want to know the list of current Championship clubs to have made a profit in the Championship whilst not receiving parachute payments in recent seasons? 14/15 - Birmingham (£1.3m) 16/17 - Barnsley (£12.8m) 17/18 - Preston (£2.3m) 18/19 - Bristol (£12.7m), QPR (£0.1m), Brentford (£20.0m) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarterForTen Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 13 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: So, any takers for date on when the fire sale of young talent will start? Plenty of names that'll be interesting; Knight Sibley Jozwiak Bird Bielik Buchannan Gordon Low ball offers that we have to accept incoming I suspect. Daniel 'Honest John' Levy already has that list and is preparing his offer.... "Look, tell you what, as it's you Mel and I like you, I'll take the lot off your hands for £1million... I know, I know, I'm a fool to myself but what can I say - it's this big heart of mine, always looking to do someone a favour...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 2 hours ago, RamNut said: Wigan’s good run happened before they went tits up You’re right. Their best form came between February and June, before administration was confirmed. But even after they went into administration, I was impressed how they held it together. They only lost once in six games. Some teams might have downed tools completely. I hope our players take some encouragement from that situation, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIllyD Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: As I said the other day I am also confident that, without Covid, our losses would be at manageable levels. Having challenged 2 posters on it now, perhaps you could give us your estimate of what the situation would have been without Covid and how you have estimated it? Woah, steady on there. Which two posters have I challenged, I posted, which I'm sure you read that neither of us know. Anyone would think you have an agenda the way you are following me around (sound familiar ? ) Im sure you can also remember, as it was the post, that at the time I said it was interesting how some posters (mentioning no names) ask for facts when it suits them, but aren't so forthcoming when it doesn't. As I already said, I have no way of estimating it, based on some of the other things I listed in the previous post (I'm sure you read that), given the accounts are late, I'm sure you know that, however I'm happy therefore for you to give me your estimates. I'm sure you have them to hand, showing how we would be in profit had it not be for COVID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Silly question probably but if Mel no longer owns the club and is not connected, can he gift money or assets to the club or a supporters trust with no FFP consequences? Not saying he would but anyone know if he could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topram Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Don’t MSD holdings own the ground after the last loan? If so why not own the club they are minted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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