Abu Derby County

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, ImARam2 said:

I'm in favour of the takeover but let's not be under any delusions taking money from this takeover is tainted. I actually have studied the UAE and the Middle East for my Undergraduate, Masters and am in the third year of my PhD using the Middle East as my case studies, so I'm not totally ignorant on the subject. The UAE may not be the worst place in the gulf but it is certainly extremely authoritarian, regressive and violates human rights on a scale which is difficult to really imagine and understand. The methodologies deployed by the UAE are aimed at snuffing out any form of dissent before it begins- whether that is through extreme forms of surveillance or financial benefits. The use of excessive state benefits to ensure compliance are the foundation of the rentier economy that props up a number of the gulf states. This flips the 'no taxation without representation' on its head and argues 'no taxation therefore no representation'. 

Thank you for your insight and well written article,  'Leeds Ram', however much you may have read or written about the Middle East, or the UAE, have you ever lived there, worked there, or even taken a holiday in any of the Gulf States?

I've read and carried out research on the Vietnam War, WWII, etc, but I've never been involved in military action of any sort, although I've spent many days and weeks in very troubled countries of the Middle East and SE Asia.

Having spent 22 years overseas, living and working 7 years in Saudi Arabia & 15 years in the UAE, and having travelled to nearly every other country in the Middle East, Nth. Africa and SE Asia, I believe I have heard and witnessed many things you will not read about in books, nor see on the TV.

Yes, there are restrictions that the western world will not tolerate, but you cannot always put the western democratic values onto countries that, in some cases, do not have a parliament, and are ruled by either the military or religious doctrines.

I first went to the Middle East in 1982, when my annual salary was £12,500 per year, to earning £25,000 / year, tax free, with free accommodation, health care and two flights home per year. For those benefits, I was at the 'beck and call' of by whoever, and wherever I was needed, and I said, "how high", when asked to do something. So, yes, I was a slave to the money, but I assure you, whoever, goes to the Middle East to earn their tax free salaries, whether they are from the UK, Europe, USA, or Far East, they are all their because thay want the money and will put up with the conditons they find themselves in.

Of course, I had no representation, but why should I have? I wasn't a citizen, I was there as an expatriate worker, not to change the laws of the land and I complied with those laws, which may seem harsh to us, but I assure you, after 22 years, I was never in danger of being mugged or murdered on the streets  because people knew the consequences. I personally know of several people, from the UK, who have spent time in a UAE jail for being drunk, having sex on the beach and adusing the taxi drivers. Then they have the audacity to ask what wre they doing wrong!!!

I suggest you go out to the UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait - all countries where you can visit for a holiday, just, in the first instance, experience another culture, something that you can't read about in books.

 I'm not even really speaking of the moral restrictions that govern the lives of the citizens (that is more complex) but rather the use of certain authoritarian techniques that are inherently problematic. These things have 0 to do with cultural political differences such as religious doctrines and everything to do with sophisticated ways of maintaining power and fostering a culture that does not tolerate dissent. 

Being a westerner in these countries does not make you immune from these issues but you may not be subject to the some of the things I mentioned in my post. When I'm talking about what is essentially modern slavery, I'm not talking about high tax free salaries. I'm talking about a state taking your passport, the company you work for refusing to pay you and in some cases being 'accommodated' in what are transport containers in 50 degree heat with toilet facilities that don't work. The people who experience these conditions do not come from Europe but rather extremely poor parts of India, Bangladesh and other such countries.  In the case of citizenship, I was not talking about people who occasionally travel to conduct work but the deliberately narrow way in which citizenship is designed as a tool to ensure loyalty and support as part of the rentier state's social contract model. 

I know plenty of people who are from and live in the region and I also know people who are unofficially banned from visiting certain gulf countries because they don't like what they have written after they have been there. I have also visited Egypt myself but I would not claim that makes me understand the country. I've learned far more by reading journal articles, reports and books over years than I have by my visit there. I did plan on going to Bahrain and Syria for my research but there is a considerable ethical issue regarding my safety and also one of finance. But I am participating in a conference which would have been in Doha if it was not for corona. 

  

[Rampage]

57 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Are these King Edward's spuds.

[Rampage]

1 hour ago, James Pond said:

I have to apologise for my "appalling spelling", I dropped my laptop and all the keys fell off, I must have put some in the wrong place.

Best excuse since my granny ripped my homework up, Sir. Followed my dog are it Sir.

[ossieram]

I reckon 13 more pages of waffle should be enough to drive them insane enough to sign the contract.

[Ram-Alf]

28 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Surely it's you who's got your wish? Our current position is the cost of not getting promoted when we had the chances.

 

I rubbed and rubbed that lamp, But the genie refused to come out.

 

[Rampage]

3 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

agreed but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen     it just means they don't want to tell us exactly why it's not signed yet (eg difficult re-negotiations w 32red)

if we knew what the real reason was, we'd be able to judge whether it might scupper the deal     I doubt it will  

I am a bit nervous, just going to have a quick scupper.

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

To: Those putting really long preaching posts. = I am not reading them much beyond first paragraph, hope they make you feel better though.

COYR.

[Rampage]

29 minutes ago, James Pond said:

I rubbed and rubbed that lamp, But the genie refused to come out.

 

Did you use the old lamp or the new lamp, JP.

[Rampage]

3 minutes ago, Dean (hick) Saunders said:

To: Those putting really long preaching posts. = I am not reading them much beyond first paragraph, hope they make you feel better though.

COYR.

Very sporting. D(h)S.

[NottsRam77]

Great posts @Leeds Ramand @ImARam2

[G-Ram]

5 minutes ago, Dean (hick) Saunders said:

To: Those putting really long preaching posts. = I am not reading them much beyond first paragraph, hope they make you feel better though.

COYR.

Agree im also not bothered where the money comes from 

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

It’s not like I would be happy with criminal funding of any kind, but there is no sign yet of anything dodgy here as far as I know.

[Ram-Alf]

10 minutes ago, Rampage said:

Did you use the old lamp or the new lamp, JP.

Not sure whether it was old or new, But it had a lovely shine on one side if that helps.

[kevinhectoring]

10 minutes ago, G-Ram said:

Agree im also not bothered where the money comes from 

you sound like a shareholder in Rolls Royce

[Rampage]

5 minutes ago, James Pond said:

Not sure whether it was old or new, But it had a lovely shine on one side if that helps.

That helps a lot, JP. Wrong lamp. Mate.

[Rev]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

 I'm not even really speaking of the moral restrictions that govern the lives of the citizens (that is more complex) but rather the use of certain authoritarian techniques that are inherently problematic. These things have 0 to do with cultural political differences such as religious doctrines and everything to do with sophisticated ways of maintaining power and fostering a culture that does not tolerate dissent. 

Being a westerner in these countries does not make you immune from these issues but you may not be subject to the some of the things I mentioned in my post. When I'm talking about what is essentially modern slavery, I'm not talking about high tax free salaries. I'm talking about a state taking your passport, the company you work for refusing to pay you and in some cases being 'accommodated' in what are transport containers in 50 degree heat with toilet facilities that don't work. The people who experience these conditions do not come from Europe but rather extremely poor parts of India, Bangladesh and other such countries.  In the case of citizenship, I was not talking about people who occasionally travel to conduct work but the deliberately narrow way in which citizenship is designed as a tool to ensure loyalty and support as part of the rentier state's social contract model. 

I know plenty of people who are from and live in the region and I also know people who are unofficially banned from visiting certain gulf countries because they don't like what they have written after they have been there. I have also visited Egypt myself but I would not claim that makes me understand the country. I've learned far more by reading journal articles, reports and books over years than I have by my visit there. I did plan on going to Bahrain and Syria for my research but there is a considerable ethical issue regarding my safety and also one of finance. But I am participating in a conference which would have been in Doha if it was not for corona. 

  

Another well reasoned and articulate post.

It's heartening to see someone grasping the opportunities that Higher education provides, and increasing the forums understanding of the issues involved through such education.

Some chancers in your position would just post about toilet activities, their copious consumption of Alco-pops and the related hangovers, and how many girls had knocked them back this week.

 

[Leeds Ram]

6 minutes ago, Rev said:

Another well reasoned and articulate post.

It's heartening to see someone grasping the opportunities that Higher education provides, and increasing the forums understanding of the issues involved through such education.

Some chancers in your position would just post about toilet activities, their copious consumption of Alco-pops and the related hangovers, and how many girls had knocked them back this week.

 

Thanks Rev for the kind words. Aha, I don't have any time for copious levels of drinking and hangovers nowadays as my PhD and other stuff I do to supplement my income such as teaching at the uni is just a full time job really.  I guess I had my share of fun as an undergrad but at 27 I'd deffo feel out of place living a party lifestyle haha. 

[Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Dean (hick) Saunders said:

It’s not like I would be happy with criminal funding of any kind, but there is no sign yet of anything dodgy here as far as I know.

Hasn't Mel made a large part of his fortune from what may be considered by some to be gambling?

[Uptherams]

Are we rich yet? 

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, Rev said:

Another well reasoned and articulate post.

It's heartening to see someone grasping the opportunities that Higher education provides, and increasing the forums understanding of the issues involved through such education.

Some chancers in your position would just post about toilet activities, their copious consumption of Alco-pops and the related hangovers, and how many girls had knocked them back this week.

 

Don't believe for one moment that you're a vicar. Do I get £5?