dog Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Going into tier three Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, ilkleyram said: @Carl Sagan just out of interest do we know what that water is like on other planets including the moon? Is it saline like our sea water, for example? Could we drink it if it melted? And what is it’s prime importance? Is it important to help sustain future habitation or is it important because of what might be in it - microscopic life for example? It's a great question. All water would have to be purified for drinking but the products removed should have other uses. On Mars the water we've seen is very heavily saline to lower the boiling point sufficiently so there occasionally appears to be liquid water on the surface (still controversial). On Earth some of the ocean salinity comes throughunderwater volcanism and hydrothermal vents, and we expect subsurface oceans on other worlds to be quite salty. You hit the nail on the head for importance, and the key thing depends on your priorities. Most rocket fuel is hydrogen and oxygen so you have a ready-made supply rather than having to bring everything out of Earth's gravity well, and can drink it too. For some scientists, it's the study of the origins of life that's the key topic. 17 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: No idea if it was crackpot or not but I read an article a few weeks back saying there was evidence that the moon was older than the earth? The currently accepted theory is that the Moon formed through a gigantic collision of a Mars-sized body (called Thera) with the early Earth. There's some strong evidence for this but some unanswered questions. The age of most planetary bodies in the solar system is similar, forming soon after the Sun as part of the same process, so unless the Moon was a captured body from beyond the solar system it couldn't be older. And the collision-theory hypothesis is partly based on the composition of the Moon being very similar to Earth, so I'd say "crackpot" ? 14 minutes ago, TigerTedd said: What if we found a microbe on Mars? Would we then not be able to terraform it for fear of making this microbe extinct? Brilliant question. I had a paper published on this topic last year ? My argument was that over the long term, for the sake of the future of Humanity and of intelligence in the universe, we should go ahead and terraform. This would be because, if microbial life exists on Mars as well as Earth, it implies it's common across the universe. When it appears complex life is not and the priority should be to guarantee our own future. This is not the current scientific orthodoxy, which would sacrifice Humanity for the sake of Martian microbes. I find it hard to understand this viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Carl Sagan said: Brilliant question. I had a paper published on this topic last year ? My argument was that over the long term, for the sake of the future of Humanity and of intelligence in the universe, we should go ahead and terraform. This would be because, if microbial life exists on Mars as well as Earth, it implies it's common across the universe. When it appears complex life is not and the priority should be to guarantee our own future. This is not the current scientific orthodoxy, which would sacrifice Humanity for the sake of Martian microbes. I find it hard to understand this viewpoint. I think I recall read somewhere that Darwin or some similar scientist found that a species of bird split into two groups and went opposite sides around a mountain range, then at some point in the future when they converged at the far end they had both evolved enough adapting to their different routes that they were now different species and unable to interbreed - or a story very similar to that. So question... If humans ever do leave Earth and colonize Mars or some other distant world, how long would it be before they would essentially be a new human species, such as Neanderthals were to us? Given that gravity, light penetration, oxygen levels probably won't be the same as on Earth wouldn't that happen pretty quickly, within a few generations? I was thinking about this a few days ago actually. If we ever do spread out into the universe because of evolution humans, as we know them, will probably only ever exist as humans on Earth - therefore this will always be our home. We should probably look after it better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: Despite the jokey post I have a keen interest in space. It will be interesting to learn what the announcement is and if it is indeed water, whether it will help us establish a base on the moon enabling us to head off further into space - or at least allow us to stage more unmanned missions to increase our knowledge. I wasn't born when we first landed on the moon, if we do go back in 2024 I'll be staying up all night to watch! Apparently I was fetched from upstairs and brought into the front room where the extended family was gathered around our little black and white telly, but I'm not at all sure I remember. If (when?) we go back to the Moon I'll definitely be watching. The 2024 target is exceedingly tight, set by Trump in the (what's looking unlikely) event of re-election, so it sneaks into his second term. It's dismissed as impossible by many, but one good thing Trump has done is instil urgency and ambition back into the US space program, especially regarding crewed missions. The big NASA rocket that's meant to do this (the SLS or space launch system) has taken 10 years and cost vast billions of dollars and probably won't be ready for a 2024 mission. It's not reusable and every launch would cost a couple of billion. However, SpaceX is building its reusable stainless steel Starship in a field in Texas that looks an increasingly more likely bet as launch vehicle, to which NASA has now diverted $100m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, maxjam said: I think I recall read somewhere that Darwin or some similar scientist found that a species of bird split into two groups and went opposite sides around a mountain range, then at some point in the future when they converged at the far end they had both evolved enough adapting to their different routes that they were now different species and unable to interbreed - or a story very similar to that. So question... If humans ever do leave Earth and colonize Mars or some other distant world, how long would it be before they would essentially be a new human species, such as Neanderthals were to us? Given that gravity, light penetration, oxygen levels probably won't be the same as on Earth wouldn't that happen pretty quickly, within a few generations? I was thinking about this a few days ago actually. If we ever do spread out into the universe because of evolution humans, as we know them, will probably only ever exist as humans on Earth - therefore this will always be our home. We should probably look after it better... Natural evolution can happen quickly when it needs to and in this case we'd be looking at genetic manipulation to speed it along. You're right this would be be the beginning of a posthuman era, where we diverge relatively quickly. For me gravity is a significant driving force, to the extent that if you're in a very low or zero-G environment, you have no use for legs and you'd replace these with a second set of arms. Then, in low light environments the nature of our eyes would have to change for them to remain useful. Protecting ourselves from radiation would be another key driver. The argument from the space evangelists is that by becoming a spacefaring civilization, most future industry will end up being built off-world and we can look after our home planet much better. And as we spread, although we will physically diverge, we hope to retain whatever is the key element that still makes us Human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRam Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Will the announcement be made from a fake tv studio with some blokes in futuristic clothing but looking like 1970s rejects? If yes, can I have a ride in an Interceptor? #showing_my_age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmu Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 It's the nazis. Iron Sky is a documentary, not a movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: No idea if it was crackpot or not but I read an article a few weeks back saying there was evidence that the moon was older than the earth? True apparantly, although not as old as @Eddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said: The currently accepted theory is that the Moon formed through a gigantic collision of a Mars-sized body (called Thera) with the early Earth. There's some strong evidence for this but some unanswered questions. The age of most planetary bodies in the solar system is similar, forming soon after the Sun as part of the same process, so unless the Moon was a captured body from beyond the solar system it couldn't be older. And the collision-theory hypothesis is partly based on the composition of the Moon being very similar to Earth, so I'd say "crackpot" ? Yes - wish I could find it now, as it was certainly very interesting, but I think the main thrust of it was trying to imply that the likelihood of a planet having a moon that appeared the same size of it's sun in the sky would be so tiny that it must have been somehow designed. I'll keep searching for it and post if I find it 1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said: My argument was that over the long term, for the sake of the future of Humanity and of intelligence in the universe, we should go ahead and terraform. This would be because, if microbial life exists on Mars as well as Earth, it implies it's common across the universe. When it appears complex life is not and the priority should be to guarantee our own future. This is not the current scientific orthodoxy, which would sacrifice Humanity for the sake of Martian microbes. I find it hard to understand this viewpoint. Me too - As Bill Hicks once said - humanity is a "virus with shoes". We are programmed to adapt, survive and replicate, it seems rather silly to suggest that overall we would act any differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 It's the monolith, isn't it. Maybe not the monkey's though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: I'll keep searching for it and post if I find it It was this https://metro.co.uk/2018/02/28/moon-older-earth-born-hellish-fiery-whirlpool-scientists-calculate-7350049/ File under crackpot I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwash_Ram Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 40 minutes ago, Bwash_Ram said: 'Oh Soup Dragon, why have the Rams only got 3 pts from a possible 18?' 'Work that out, young Clanger and we will all have some Blue String Pudding to celebrate.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucker1884 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 4 hours ago, TigerTedd said: What if we found a microbe on Mars? I would Email the manufacturer's customer complaints department, and include a photo. Odds are you'll get at least a £20 voucher to spend on any of their choc products. Whatever you do, don't just take it back to the shop... They'll show no interest whatsoever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 8 hours ago, Dimmu said: It's the nazis. Iron Sky is a documentary, not a movie. It's a classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said: It's a classic That looks amazing! Might have to add it to my top 11 movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 12 hours ago, maxjam said: Despite the jokey post I have a keen interest in space. It will be interesting to learn what the announcement is and if it is indeed water, whether it will help us establish a base on the moon enabling us to head off further into space - or at least allow us to stage more unmanned missions to increase our knowledge. I wasn't born when we first landed on the moon, if we do go back in 2024 I'll be staying up all night to watch! It'll be just my luck they'll land in daytime, so I won't be able to see it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsnip Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 12 hours ago, Carl Sagan said: but one good thing Trump has done is instil urgency and ambition back into the US space program, especially regarding crewed missions What a statement Trump could make by becoming the first man in the 21st century to step foot on the moon. Having conquered the earth he could now fearlessly go and conquer space! I'd 100% support him in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 can somebody please explain to a cynic like myself, who isn't convinced that Man landed on the moon, and believes it was another conspiracy to dupe gullible Americans into not questioning where billions of dollars disappeared to, why man hasn't returned to the moon since? Particularly considering the massive advances in technological capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 20 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: can somebody please explain to a cynic like myself, who isn't convinced that Man landed on the moon, and believes it was another conspiracy to dupe gullible Americans into not questioning where billions of dollars disappeared to, why man hasn't returned to the moon since? Particularly considering the massive advances in technological capabilities. Off the top of my head - The USA beat the Russians, viewing figures were dropping off, the political will wasn't there anymore. - We'd also achieved pretty much all we could at the time with manned landings. - It's far easier, safer and cheaper to send unmanned vehicles. Pffft, not been to the moon. How could Neil Armstrong have seen aliens on the moon if he never went ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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