Sack cocu

[sage]

http://www.fussballstadt.com/psv-eindhoven-gone-wrong-phillip-cocu/

 

Here is a story about PSV fans asking where it all went wrong at PSV in Aug 2017, a few games into the season, when he had lost a couple of players and hadn't yet got the replacements he wanted, meaning he had to play people out of position.

They won the title that year with 3 games to spare.

We aren't going to win the Championship title this season, but this does illustrate that managers understand that performance and results improve when you have more players available but fans doesn't always understand.  

[Asanovic70]

Why do posters keep comparing Clough to Cocu? Clough hardly had any money. Fans held Sammon against him but forgot he brought in Martin. I doubt he spent in his entire tenure what was wasted on Anya, fee & wages (£27.5k a week).

I agree with Mostyn, though I remember on other sites he was advocating Jim Magilton & other names  to replace Clough . You wanted a passionate manager like Billy then instead of Clough, now we have the staid laidback Dutchman.

To sum up, Cocu (typo)- but which seems appropriate, should go.  I  think Mostyn made a good point about having a style despite injuries. When you look at the impact Struber had at Barnsley, in a matter of weeks, or Paunovic at Reading, who arrived less than two weeks before the season began, I just think we have employed a dud who probably makes things unnecessarily complicated. At Norwich, against a side out of form, it was straightforward. The new formation looks daft, I thought Martin had run his time at Derby, but maybe with a 5-3-2, you could have played him up front with Marriott. 

I don't usually advocate for managers to go, I was sorry to see Clough leave and think he couldn't do a worse job than the current incumbent. The context was different,  GSE owned the club. However, I'd like to see Paul Cook be given a chance. John Gregory alongside Rooney does not fill me with excitement.

I think we could find ourselves in a relegation battle, you don't lose three home games in succession for no reason & failed to score. Mel Morris clearly cares for the Rams, but so did Nigel Doughty for his beloved Forest - and he managed to take them out of the Champ'ship - into League 1.  They went from the play-offs under Hart to fighting relegation in a matter of a season & a half. If you're run badly, eventually it can catch up with you. To swop two strikers, one probably short of confidence, for Kazim-Richards?  Is he any better than Jerome, now at MK Dons in L1? Sometimes you can care too much & make the wrong decisions. Mel's problem is that he is probably too hands-on & should have been more detached instead of chasing headlines. I mean, how many chairmen appear on TalkSport? In defence of Cocu, and it's probably been said on here before, how much authority did he have over Rooney's signing? I know it worked out second half of the season, but you wonder. There I have some sympathy.

[Wolfie20]

1 minute ago, Asanovic70 said:

Why do posters keep comparing Clough to Cocu? Clough hardly had any money. Fans held Sammon against him but forgot he brought in Martin. I doubt he spent in his entire tenure what was wasted on Anya, fee & wages (£27.5k a week).

I agree with Mostyn, though I remember on other sites he was advocating Jim Magilton & other names  to replace Clough . You wanted a passionate manager like Billy then instead of Clough, now we have the staid laidback Dutchman.

To sum up, Cocu (typo)- but which seems appropriate, should go.  I  think Mostyn made a good point about having a style despite injuries. When you look at the impact Struber had at Barnsley, in a matter of weeks, or Paunovic at Reading, who arrived less than two weeks before the season began, I just think we have employed a dud who probably makes things unnecessarily complicated. At Norwich, against a side out of form, it was straightforward. The new formation looks daft, I thought Martin had run his time at Derby, but maybe with a 5-3-2, you could have played him up front with Marriott. 

I don't usually advocate for managers to go, I was sorry to see Clough leave and think he couldn't do a worse job than the current incumbent. The context was different,  GSE owned the club. However, I'd like to see Paul Cook be given a chance. John Gregory alongside Rooney does not fill me with excitement.

I think we could find ourselves in a relegation battle, you don't lose three home games in succession for no reason & failed to score. Mel Morris clearly cares for the Rams, but so did Nigel Doughty for his beloved Forest - and he managed to take them out of the Champ'ship - into League 1.  They went from the play-offs under Hart to fighting relegation in a matter of a season & a half. If you're run badly, eventually it can catch up with you. To swop two strikers, one probably short of confidence, for Kazim-Richards?  Is he any better than Jerome, now at MK Dons in L1? Sometimes you can care too much & make the wrong decisions. Mel's problem is that he is probably too hands-on & should have been more detached instead of chasing headlines. I mean, how many chairmen appear on TalkSport? In defence of Cocu, and it's probably been said on here before, how much authority did he have over Rooney's signing? I know it worked out second half of the season, but you wonder. There I have some sympathy.

This post lost total credibility on the first line of the last paragraph- no reason????

No Waghorn, no Bielik, no Tom Lawrence and in the most recent defeat no Jozwiak - all of who would most likely be in Cocu's starting line-up.

[Jimbo Ram]

6 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

This post lost total credibility on the first line of the last paragraph- no reason????

No Waghorn, no Bielik, no Tom Lawrence and in the most recent defeat no Jozwiak - all of who would most likely be in Cocu's starting line-up.

Sibley and Ibe to come in too....

[Asanovic70]

 So you're placing all your faith on Bielik after a long lay-off? What was Bielik like last season? I don't remember a world beater at £10m, I remember him getting sent off or causing consternation at the back in the loss at Brentford. 

Wake up, - Cocu had access to all of those players last season - bar Jozwiak - during our poor opening first half of the season. Anyway, with regards to credibility, I suggest you look at soccerstats. You'll see that we failed to beat any of the top 8 at home, and, as others have pointed out, were well beaten last season by the likes of Leeds & Brentford towards the end of last season, & lost 12 on the road, 17th in terms of away (Lower third of the table). This side lacks character apart from the likes of Knight, and that is an indictment on the rest of the team.

 

[FindernRam]

2 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

So you've basically just resigned us to relegation

Not necessarily: There are other teams struggling almost as much as us. Just watched Preston in a very dull game. forest almost as bad.Coventry Barnsley, Wycombe etc. 10 teams have won one or less from the first 5, Shocking stat really. But it gives me a little hope if we can be in touch when window opens.

Some on here thnik I'm a born pessimist- maybe thats true where 50 years of following Derby is concerned. Been there got excited got knocked back- repeat ad-infinitum.

[bcnram]

4 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Has Cocu even looked as good as Mac2?

It depends what you want to watch. If you want to watch Mac's predictable get it in the area from the side (his mantra is always in the area, in the area, in the area) that teams started to find easy to defend against, then that is your answer. However, if you want a manager who encourages playing the ball through teams and has a top bottom approach to include the youth system with a long term approach Cocu is you man. 

Maclaren has not had any real success as a manager, is glory days have come as assistant with others calling the shots.

Quote

 

 

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, bcnram said:

Maclaren has not had any real success as a manager, is glory days have come as assistant with others calling the shots.

Really?!

[Sith Happens]

15 minutes ago, bcnram said:

It depends what you want to watch. If you want to watch Mac's predictable get it in the area from the side (his mantra is always in the area, in the area, in the area) that teams started to find easy to defend against, then that is your answer. However, if you want a manager who encourages playing the ball through teams and has a top bottom approach to include the youth system with a long term approach Cocu is you man. 

Maclaren has not had any real success as a manager, is glory days have come as assistant with others calling the shots.

 

[Abu Dhabi Ram]

2 hours ago, Asanovic70 said:

Why do posters keep comparing Clough to Cocu? Clough hardly had any money. Fans held Sammon against him but forgot he brought in Martin. I doubt he spent in his entire tenure what was wasted on Anya, fee & wages (£27.5k a week).

I agree with Mostyn, though I remember on other sites he was advocating Jim Magilton & other names  to replace Clough . You wanted a passionate manager like Billy then instead of Clough, now we have the staid laidback Dutchman.

To sum up, Cocu (typo)- but which seems appropriate, should go.  I  think Mostyn made a good point about having a style despite injuries. When you look at the impact Struber had at Barnsley, in a matter of weeks, or Paunovic at Reading, who arrived less than two weeks before the season began, I just think we have employed a dud who probably makes things unnecessarily complicated. At Norwich, against a side out of form, it was straightforward. The new formation looks daft, I thought Martin had run his time at Derby, but maybe with a 5-3-2, you could have played him up front with Marriott. 

I don't usually advocate for managers to go, I was sorry to see Clough leave and think he couldn't do a worse job than the current incumbent. The context was different,  GSE owned the club. However, I'd like to see Paul Cook be given a chance. John Gregory alongside Rooney does not fill me with excitement.

I think we could find ourselves in a relegation battle, you don't lose three home games in succession for no reason & failed to score. Mel Morris clearly cares for the Rams, but so did Nigel Doughty for his beloved Forest - and he managed to take them out of the Champ'ship - into League 1.  They went from the play-offs under Hart to fighting relegation in a matter of a season & a half. If you're run badly, eventually it can catch up with you. To swop two strikers, one probably short of confidence, for Kazim-Richards?  Is he any better than Jerome, now at MK Dons in L1? Sometimes you can care too much & make the wrong decisions. Mel's problem is that he is probably too hands-on & should have been more detached instead of chasing headlines. I mean, how many chairmen appear on TalkSport? In defence of Cocu, and it's probably been said on here before, how much authority did he have over Rooney's signing? I know it worked out second half of the season, but you wonder. There I have some sympathy.

What has Anya got to do with either of the two managers? Stopped reading at that point. 

[Rammeister]

2 hours ago, Asanovic70 said:

I don't usually advocate for managers to go, I was sorry to see Clough leave and think he couldn't do a worse job than the current incumbent. The context was different,  GSE owned the club. However, I'd like to see Paul Cook be given a chance. John Gregory alongside Rooney does not fill me with excitement.

I know there are a number of others round here who’d disagree, but I personally don’t get this ongoing Paul Cook love-in, to the point where I was checking his managerial stats on Wiki.

Do we really think, if Cocu was to go that he is the man with sufficient credibility to manage Rooney et al? He did well at Chesterfield and at times at Wigan. Does that REALLY equip him to manage a much bigger club in major transition? Or are we just thinking about the standard of football in the here and now rather than the bigger picture stuff that is going on at the moment- i.e. sorting the club out after over a decade of Championship football?

[Asanovic70]

What has Anya got to do with either of the two managers? Stopped reading at that point. 

Both managers are accused of underwhelming football, yet one managed under GSE and financial restrictions, whilst the other has been supported by a benefactor.

A benefactor who has wasted £150m, of which Anya is representative. Anya highlights how we have gone from the likes of Bryson/Hendrick & Hughes, a side that had character & honesty, to a bloated squad of overpaid, underperforming 'stars'.

Now do us a favour if you can be bothered. Tot up whatever Clough spent & see it matches what we wasted on Anya, a good £11m+. I reckon it will be close.

[Sith Happens]

2 hours ago, Asanovic70 said:

Why do posters keep comparing Clough to Cocu? Clough hardly had any money. Fans held Sammon against him but forgot he brought in Martin. I doubt he spent in his entire tenure what was wasted on Anya, fee & wages (£27.5k a week).

I agree with Mostyn, though I remember on other sites he was advocating Jim Magilton & other names  to replace Clough . You wanted a passionate manager like Billy then instead of Clough, now we have the staid laidback Dutchman.

To sum up, Cocu (typo)- but which seems appropriate, should go.  I  think Mostyn made a good point about having a style despite injuries. When you look at the impact Struber had at Barnsley, in a matter of weeks, or Paunovic at Reading, who arrived less than two weeks before the season began, I just think we have employed a dud who probably makes things unnecessarily complicated. At Norwich, against a side out of form, it was straightforward. The new formation looks daft, I thought Martin had run his time at Derby, but maybe with a 5-3-2, you could have played him up front with Marriott. 

I don't usually advocate for managers to go, I was sorry to see Clough leave and think he couldn't do a worse job than the current incumbent. The context was different,  GSE owned the club. However, I'd like to see Paul Cook be given a chance. John Gregory alongside Rooney does not fill me with excitement.

I think we could find ourselves in a relegation battle, you don't lose three home games in succession for no reason & failed to score. Mel Morris clearly cares for the Rams, but so did Nigel Doughty for his beloved Forest - and he managed to take them out of the Champ'ship - into League 1.  They went from the play-offs under Hart to fighting relegation in a matter of a season & a half. If you're run badly, eventually it can catch up with you. To swop two strikers, one probably short of confidence, for Kazim-Richards?  Is he any better than Jerome, now at MK Dons in L1? Sometimes you can care too much & make the wrong decisions. Mel's problem is that he is probably too hands-on & should have been more detached instead of chasing headlines. I mean, how many chairmen appear on TalkSport? In defence of Cocu, and it's probably been said on here before, how much authority did he have over Rooney's signing? I know it worked out second half of the season, but you wonder. There I have some sympathy.

Its nice to see a post with a different slant ?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 minutes ago, bcnram said:

It depends what you want to watch. If you want to watch Mac's predictable get it in the area from the side (his mantra is always in the area, in the area, in the area) that teams started to find easy to defend against, then that is your answer. However, if you want a manager who encourages playing the ball through teams and has a top bottom approach to include the youth system with a long term approach Cocu is you man. 

Maclaren has not had any real success as a manager, is glory days have come as assistant with others calling the shots.

 

Apart from those winning the league cup with  Middlesbrough and getting to the UEFA cup final and winning the much Eredivisie with Twente for the only time in there history. They have been relegated since then, so shows how fantastic a job that was.

McClaren isn't infallable,  but his CV as a manager as well as an assistant manager stacks up better than the current bloke every time.

Regarding style of play, I think our record points title and amount of goals scored tells it's own story.  Not sure how that shows we were easy to defend against .  The current style is though.

 

 

[nottingram]

8 minutes ago, Asanovic70 said:

What has Anya got to do with either of the two managers? Stopped reading at that point. 

Both managers are accused of underwhelming football, yet one managed under GSE and financial restrictions, whilst the other has been supported by a benefactor.

A benefactor who has wasted £150m, of which Anya is representative. Anya highlights how we have gone from the likes of Bryson/Hendrick & Hughes, a side that had character & honesty, to a bloated squad of overpaid, underperforming 'stars'.

Now do us a favour if you can be bothered. Tot up whatever Clough spent & see it matches what we wasted on Anya, a good £11m+. I reckon it will be close.

Yes, if only we now had a manager who seems willing to sort through the mess left by predecessors and who is willing to take on a long term outlook. 

The rest of the post is completely irrelevant to Cocu.

[Gone]

59 minutes ago, bcnram said:

However, if you want a manager who encourages playing the ball through teams

What? What? When had this happened? Is that what he is trying to do? We’ve scored 2 goals this season, I don’t want to look up the shots on target but I’m guessing we aren’t in double figures. If we are “playing the ball through teams” then the business end of the stats say it’s not very successful. 

[RoyMac5]

41 minutes ago, Van Rammeister said:

I know there are a number of others round here who’d disagree, but I personally don’t get this ongoing Paul Cook love-in, to the point where I was checking his managerial stats on Wiki.

Do we really think, if Cocu was to go that he is the man with sufficient credibility to manage Rooney et al? He did well at Chesterfield and at times at Wigan. Does that REALLY equip him to manage a much bigger club in major transition? 

 

Quote

Chesterfield:

On 25 October 2012 he joined League Two rivals Chesterfield ...the end of his first season saw him guide Chesterfield to eighth position finishing just two points outside the play-off zone. In the following year he led Chesterfield to the League Two championship and promotion, and they comfortably maintained their new League One status in 2014–15, reaching sixth place and the play-offs.

Portsmouth:

In May 2015, Cook was appointed manager at League Two club Portsmouth for a compensation fee. On 6 May 2017, Cook guided Portsmouth to the League Two title.

Wigan Athletic:

On 31 May 2017, Cook was appointed manager of newly relegated League One club Wigan Athletic... He led Wigan to the League One title and on an impressive FA Cup run that claimed three shocks against top flight opponents West Ham United, Bournemouth and Manchester City. Cook resigned as Wigan manager on 29 July 2020, following the club's relegation due to a 12-point deduction applied after Wigan went into administration earlier in the month.

Has an overall win record of 43.1%

[Asanovic70]

53 minutes ago, Van Rammeister said:

I know there are a number of others round here who’d disagree, but I personally don’t get this ongoing Paul Cook love-in, to the point where I was checking his managerial stats on Wiki.

Do we really think, if Cocu was to go that he is the man with sufficient credibility to manage Rooney et al? He did well at Chesterfield and at times at Wigan. Does that REALLY equip him to manage a much bigger club in major transition? Or are we just thinking about the standard of football in the here and now rather than the bigger picture stuff that is going on at the moment- i.e. sorting the club out after over a decade of Championship football?

You make a lot of good points. Firstly, any managerial appointment contains an element of risk. Paul Cook has managed at clubs with a lower profile and less media scrutiny though he was criticised sometimes at Portsmouth. You're right, the Derby job is challenging and he may find the gap too big, the constant media scrutiny, social media, our owner.

Second, I disagree slightly with your point about the here and now. Cook only left Wigan after the well-documented financial problems/administration. He built a side over three seasons (the bigger picture) & the fact is we cherry-picked two players from them. That's a backhanded compliment as any.

Thirdly, we're hearing about this long-term project. I bought into the Clough blue-print so we've been here before. We're not seeing a great deal of progress in terms of style. What we are seeing is similar to Paul Clement, a European style in the English second tier. You can argue that Wolves achieved that a couple of seasons ago. I think Cocu would not receive so much criticism if the team played with more fluency, created more opportunities but the fact is we have scored three goals & none  at home. I think fans are forgiving if they see discernible progress.

Fourthly, Cook does have two seasons of experience in the Championship. He managed to outwit Bielsa at Leeds and recorded a famous win at home against Man City in the FAC. It doesn't mean he could translate this to Pride Park as you imply, and he could very well struggle. But is there an element of football snobbery here? He is an unglamorous Liverpudlian, not a Dutchman who played for Barcelona. How are people supposed to progress if there are not given a chance? Chris Wilder at Sheff United has achieved success, a unheralded manager, though he started with the advantage that they had already hit rock bottom.

I think Cook's style of football encompasses both the enterprising and pragmatic (flexibility). His Chesterfield team won a lot of plaudits after pushing Derby all the way (2-0 win) in an FAC game. I think he utilises a 4-3-3 formation. They were also defensively resilient towards the end of last season. They eventually turned their away form after a terrible run without wins on the road.

Finially, you're right about handling players with big egos, but as I alluded to in a previous post, I think Cocu's position may have been undermined by the signing of Rooney. I think Rooney would be challenge for any manager as has been seen at Man United & Everton in the past. I think Cook is cut from the same lower league cloth as Wilder, where he is the figurehead of the club & his authority unchallenged.

 

 

[Rammeister]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Has an overall win record of 43.1%

Cocu managerial career win record at 57.8%.

[Jayram]

40 minutes ago, Van Rammeister said:

I know there are a number of others round here who’d disagree, but I personally don’t get this ongoing Paul Cook love-in, to the point where I was checking his managerial stats on Wiki.

Do we really think, if Cocu was to go that he is the man with sufficient credibility to manage Rooney et al? He did well at Chesterfield and at times at Wigan. Does that REALLY equip him to manage a much bigger club in major transition? Or are we just thinking about the standard of football in the here and now rather than the bigger picture stuff that is going on at the moment- i.e. sorting the club out after over a decade of Championship football?

Chris Wilder had managed the likes of Alfreton, Halifax and Northampton before Sheffield Utd decided to take a punt on him. It doesn't matter how big the club is - if you're good enough you'll succeed.

Cook is exactly the kind of manager the club needs; used to working within a tight budget, proven success at EFL level and develops teams who plays attractive football. He may not be a big name but he would be the perfect fit.