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Sack cocu


dantheram

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8 minutes ago, ossieram said:

I've decided that all those that are wanting a managerial change are right.

I remember a few weeks back how many were calling for Chris Hughton to come in and replace Phil and after seeing the way forest are flying up the league and the way that Chris is motivating and using the massive and talented squad at his disposal, we should have all listened to you many weeks ago.

If only Mel had listened eh, we could be top of the league like forest.

I daren't even look at how many points above us they are  due to the new manager bounce.

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I recognised the improvement in the team when we had the pace and mobility to press up front. We lost Jozwiak and suddenly were not as effective.

when he and Ibe are fit, along with Waghorn and Lawrence - we will be a different proposition.

I also note that when I only have a hammer, my screws did not go in as straight as I would like, or bear weight. As soon as I got a screw driver - problem solved.

All about the right tools - innit?!

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We have to dream. That’s the passion

cocu admitted that the senior players called a meeting to change to a more aggressive style, to which he agreed. Let’s hope they call another meeting to remind him they want to win... and possibly save his job

We can’t have his chief cheerleader accepting this as the norm!

COYR

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Imo part of the problem with our forwards is to do with their left or right footedness. 
for years we have had this idea of playing right footer on the left (Lawrence or jozwiak) and a left footer on the right (Waghorn and ince), on the basis that the striker cutting inside On his stronger foot offers more threat. The evidence does not support this.

ince became very predictable and increasingly ineffective, especially at stoke.

lawrence always runs across the pitch into traffic and trouble as he attempts to get into a shooting position on his right foot. Lawrence is a selfish player whose first thought is not to pass. He’s not a winger because he can’t go down the outside and he doesn’t want to be a provider. he is more effective in a freer central role, but he’s still greedy.

waghorn on the right cannot go on his right foot. Yesterday he was played through brilliantly by knight in the inside right channel. He was virtually clean through but he couldn’t take it on because he had to switch the ball onto his left foot and ended up drifting across the face of the box before hitting a tame shot. 

Jozwiak on the left is similarly handicapped by the need to get the ball onto his preferred right foot. He is great at holding the ball whilst we get up in support, but as yet we have seen no evidence that he himself offers much goal threat. 

These little moments where a player has to transfer the ball onto the kicking foot are often the moment where the chance is lost. 

the other major factor is that by playing an extra defender, we are a man light in attack. That’s why I’d pick Sibley in central midfield. He can defend, tackle and press. But can also run with the ball as well as knight, Lawrence and Jozwiak and he gives us more goal threat. 

the attack isn’t bad when everyone is fit but it could be better. yesterday we missed the hold up man - jozwiak - and the centre forward got shifted out of position. As v Forest, Sibley looked dangerous when he came on but it was too late.

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I really think it is time for people to get a grip regarding Cocu and the start to this season. Yeah, we've won one game and if you want to go on that alone then fine, but it ignores a lot of wider factors and chooses to blindly ignore the obvious improvement in performance and the quality of the opposition were have played against.

Yesterday, there seems to be some kind of consensus from a certain part of the forum and social media that we were awful, set up to be defensive, didn't want to leave our own half etc. etc. but we were clearly just penned back in during the second half. It is important to note that over the course of 90 minutes we had the same number of shots and certainly had good enough chances to score a second. Cocu could have tried to change things a little, but who would you have thrown on at that point? Sibley who might carry you forwards, but also might leave a big gap in midfield to be exploited? CKR who can hold the ball up better, but doesn't have the same energy in the press that had been so effective in the first half as Waghorn? It is easy to say we should have just thrown attackers on, but we would have been crucified by Bournemouth as space opened up. How many of their attacking players would we take into our side? I imagine quite a few! 

Over the past 6 games we have lost twice. In that time we have played the three relegated clubs getting 4 points in the process, our local rivals, which is always a difficult game, and Cardiff, who were in the play offs last season. It is also fair to say that we could easily have six more points on the board right now, but between our own inability to take our chances, and refereeing decisions, rather than any tactical problems, we don't. It is also important to factor in that the team we started the season with was missing several key players who are still fighting their way back to full fitness, combined with new players coming into the team and the amount of young players we are using. When Mac lost a large numbers of key players at once during the 14/15 season we slipped from top of the league to 8th, why do we expect this squad to fair so much better?

If we were judging Derby from the outside we would be discussing how dangerous we are becoming now players are returning to fitness. Do we not remember before lockdown how we dismantled Sheffield Wednesday? We could easily have been five or six up at half time, or the battering we gave to Blackburn? or the pasting we dealt to Stoke? If we look back over Cocu's tenure there isn't much evidence to suggest he goes into every game trying to get a 0-0, he clearly wants his teams to attack. It may not be gung ho approach that fans want, but he wants Derby to have the ball, to pin teams back, and to create chances. He has moved to bring in quick, direct wingers to stretch the play, his teams in Holland regularly scored more than 3 goals a game, but it is pretty difficult to go after teams when you are forced to have two central midfielders playing on the wings. I would argue that it was his own ambition to have Derby impose themselves on games by dominating the ball and attempting to pin teams in with the inferior players, which led to the defeats to Reading, Blackburn and Luton. It is also very difficult to go after teams who are, man for man better than you and maintain that for a full 90 minutes. We tried against Bournemouth and for the first half we did really well, they couldn't handle the front three, but in the end our own fatigue did us in. But anyone watching surely realises that if we continue to play how we are we are going to win far more than we lose.

This is not to say I am some sort of 'happy clapper', or blind optimist. The next six are crucial, points need to be added and we need to start to climb the table. Encouraging signs aren't enough to last forever, but I think at this stage they merit Cocu receiving far more backing than he is getting. Speak to me after we have played Coventry and my tune might have changed, but for now, Cocu is the man to lead us forward. It is time for us to pull together, time for us to back the club and the manager, and it is certainly time for us to climb this league! Cocu IN!

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13 hours ago, Jourdan said:

The thing is winning games pretty much ends the debate.

When we are on a run like we are currently, threads like this won’t go away quietly.

On the one hand, you could frame it as three games unbeaten and small steps in the right direction.

If we win the next two and in some style, it will certainly feel that way. 

On the other hand, we also haven’t won in five games and we are currently in the bottom three.

Cocu will be there to be shot at while we are marooned in the bottom six and rubbing shoulders with Wycombe, Rotherham and Coventry.

That is an absolutely reasonable viewpoint. I wouldn’t argue with anyone who said we need results (wins) because we do.

But it is tiring reading that we were negative against Forest, Cardiff and Bournemouth when in reality we probably got one less point than you might expect from those three fixtures and played well in maybe 75% of the ~270 minutes of play? Of course we do have to back that up this week but we’ve now set very solid foundations for an upcoming run of, on paper, easier fixtures.

I am all for good debate from both sides of the coin but at times it feels like some people are just seeing what they have decided to see before a ball has been kicked and renewed calls for him to be sacked off the back of yesterday leads me to question what it is people are expecting. Anyone who thinks we will go to Bournemouth, dominate for 90 minutes and win is kidding themselves. As it is we seemed to dominate for a good portion of the game and drew. In terms of baby steps and making progress, that’s good enough for me, for now.  

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1 hour ago, Igorwasking said:

I recognised the improvement in the team when we had the pace and mobility to press up front. We lost Jozwiak and suddenly were not as effective.

when he and Ibe are fit, along with Waghorn and Lawrence - we will be a different proposition.

I also note that when I only have a hammer, my screws did not go in as straight as I would like, or bear weight. As soon as I got a screw driver - problem solved.

All about the right tools - innit?!

Good worksman don’t blame his tools

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29 minutes ago, DCFC_Sloth said:

I really think it is time for people to get a grip regarding Cocu and the start to this season. Yeah, we've won one game and if you want to go on that alone then fine, but it ignores a lot of wider factors and chooses to blindly ignore the obvious improvement in performance and the quality of the opposition were have played against.

Yesterday, there seems to be some kind of consensus from a certain part of the forum and social media that we were awful, set up to be defensive, didn't want to leave our own half etc. etc. but we were clearly just penned back in during the second half. It is important to note that over the course of 90 minutes we had the same number of shots and certainly had good enough chances to score a second. Cocu could have tried to change things a little, but who would you have thrown on at that point? Sibley who might carry you forwards, but also might leave a big gap in midfield to be exploited? CKR who can hold the ball up better, but doesn't have the same energy in the press that had been so effective in the first half as Waghorn? It is easy to say we should have just thrown attackers on, but we would have been crucified by Bournemouth as space opened up. How many of their attacking players would we take into our side? I imagine quite a few! 

Over the past 6 games we have lost twice. In that time we have played the three relegated clubs getting 4 points in the process, our local rivals, which is always a difficult game, and Cardiff, who were in the play offs last season. It is also fair to say that we could easily have six more points on the board right now, but between our own inability to take our chances, and refereeing decisions, rather than any tactical problems, we don't. It is also important to factor in that the team we started the season with was missing several key players who are still fighting their way back to full fitness, combined with new players coming into the team and the amount of young players we are using. When Mac lost a large numbers of key players at once during the 14/15 season we slipped from top of the league to 8th, why do we expect this squad to fair so much better?

If we were judging Derby from the outside we would be discussing how dangerous we are becoming now players are returning to fitness. Do we not remember before lockdown how we dismantled Sheffield Wednesday? We could easily have been five or six up at half time, or the battering we gave to Blackburn? or the pasting we dealt to Stoke? If we look back over Cocu's tenure there isn't much evidence to suggest he goes into every game trying to get a 0-0, he clearly wants his teams to attack. It may not be gung ho approach that fans want, but he wants Derby to have the ball, to pin teams back, and to create chances. He has moved to bring in quick, direct wingers to stretch the play, his teams in Holland regularly scored more than 3 goals a game, but it is pretty difficult to go after teams when you are forced to have two central midfielders playing on the wings. I would argue that it was his own ambition to have Derby impose themselves on games by dominating the ball and attempting to pin teams in with the inferior players, which led to the defeats to Reading, Blackburn and Luton. It is also very difficult to go after teams who are, man for man better than you and maintain that for a full 90 minutes. We tried against Bournemouth and for the first half we did really well, they couldn't handle the front three, but in the end our own fatigue did us in. But anyone watching surely realises that if we continue to play how we are we are going to win far more than we lose.

This is not to say I am some sort of 'happy clapper', or blind optimist. The next six are crucial, points need to be added and we need to start to climb the table. Encouraging signs aren't enough to last forever, but I think at this stage they merit Cocu receiving far more backing than he is getting. Speak to me after we have played Coventry and my tune might have changed, but for now, Cocu is the man to lead us forward. It is time for us to pull together, time for us to back the club and the manager, and it is certainly time for us to climb this league! Cocu IN!

At last a voice of reason !!

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1 hour ago, DCFC_Sloth said:

...but it is pretty difficult to go after teams when you are forced to have two central midfielders playing on the wings.

I would argue that it was his own ambition to have Derby impose themselves on games by dominating the ball and attempting to pin teams in with the inferior players, which led to the defeats to Reading, Blackburn and Luton.

 It is also very difficult to go after teams who are, man for man better than you and maintain that for a full 90 minutes.

None of these points are down to Cocu then? Oh and I don't agree with them at all btw.

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3 hours ago, CBRammette said:

You are very lucky to be ITK on Cocu's involvement in our recruitment. If he is to blame for it all presumably you will also give him credit for Jowiak, Marshall x2 and the clear out also In the same window?

 

3 hours ago, nottingram said:

Do you really think Cocu a) chose to let Martin leave and/or b) chose Colin Kazim-Richards as his “replacement”?

I think both those decisions were affected hugely by financial constraints that Cocu has absolutely nothing to do with and no control over. I’m quite sure that given the choice Cocu would have Martin 100% of the time but alas the club was unable to give him that choice.

By all means use it as another stick to beat him with though.

Cocu didn't use CKR yesterday and he often didn't use Martin ..... hard not to draw the conclusion.

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15 minutes ago, DRBee said:

 

Cocu didn't use CKR yesterday and he often didn't use Martin ..... hard not to draw the conclusion.

Martin played 37 times last season and was a key part of our good run post January. CKR has made 3 appearances out of 4 so far.

Only conclusion that isn’t hard to draw is that you’re talking out of your backside

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Last season, first 8

pld 8 won 1 drew 5 lost 2 - 8 points

this season first 8

pld 8 won 1 drew 3 lost 5 - 6 points

not a lot of difference. 
 

we’ve been through a huge turnover of players in that time. Only Lawrence, clarke and Waghorn survive.  And two of them have only recently returned from injury.
I really think we should write off the first five games. The season started with forest away.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

None of these points are down to Cocu then? Oh and I don't agree with them at all btw.

If you take them point by point you can see that there is more at play. 

Playing central midfielders in wide areas: This wasn't done whilst leaving established players on the bench. He was forced into this move. You can see it isn't his preference to play Holmes and Knight as wingers as he stopped doing it as soon has he Jozwick and Lawrence available. He did not choose to play them out of position, his hand was forced.

Inferior players: Bournemouth have just been relegated from the league above after spending heavily whilst up there. We are still trying to blood young players and rebuild our squad. They are bringing on players who have over 50 caps for Norway from their bench whilst we are bringing on young players from the academy, who may have a high ceiling, but they aren't there yet. How many of our players get into their starting eleven? This doesn't apply to every side in the league, but some perspective of opposition is needed. We are having to rebuild our squad whilst generating money to cover for a pandemic and for previous FFP losses. 

Going after teams who are better than you for 90 minutes: For 45 minutes we pressed them hard, caused problems and created chances, but then we got tired, they started to pin us back and so it made more sense for us to retreat into a shape. When you get tired you can't chase as effectively and space opens up. They have a lot of quality in their side and they would have picked us off. A point away at a relegated side is not a bad result. We could have got more from this game if we had taken the chances we did make, but tactically there wasn't that much wrong yesterday, or since the win at Norwich. Cocu made changes on the back of poor results to: Make us harder to beat - we definitely are, and to create more chances - we definitely do. 

I'm not sure what more he could have done in the last run of fixtures. The team creates more chances, but Cocu isn't the one standing on the pitch to put them in the net. We don't concede as many goals, we look well organised and drilled, the Bournemouth goal came from Buchanan getting drawn away from his man - he chose to vacate his position, Cocu didn't tell him to. A mistake by a young player who will learn, but this is where we are. We sold the more experienced full backs to cover Covid losses and previous spending, and that is not on Phil. The forest goal came from a corner with a clear foul on Davies, the Watford goal was just a great finish. Cocu isn't programming a robot here, these things happen.

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