Chris_Martin Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 20 hours ago, ram1964 said: The only thing Cocu hasn't done that the previous half dozen managers have. Is spend a poo load of cash. Really? Jozwiak 3-4mil Bielik 8-10mil Rooneys wages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Cocu just needs a good week really to buy himself some more time. If we could avoid defeat in the next three - say getting one win and two draws - there would be something to build on and it would be the strongest sign yet that the players are still with Cocu. On current form, no-one is expecting much if anything from the next three, so we just need to see something to hold onto. That’s all we’re looking for really. Signs. Not nine or ten wins in a row, but just some suggestion that things can be turned around. It’s very difficult to point to signs when we are even losing the games that you would earmark as ones that might bring some relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram1964 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Chris_Martin said: Really? Jozwiak 3-4mil Bielik 8-10mil Rooneys wages Not sure Cocu had alot to do with Rooney joining us and as for his wages isn't it well publicised Derby are probably not paying sufficient to keep in toilet rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab a dab doo Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 How much time do we give Phil ? Will at-least ONE game were has nearly 'all' his squad match fit to choose from before we ALL pack his bags for and send him on is way as another Derby managerial failure. Being serious at least 6 or 7 games with everyone fit and then decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckle Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 10 games minimum, here's why. We often hear that you shouldn’t judge a season until after 10 games but that hasn’t stopped a significant portion of Derby fans calling for the sacking of Philip Cocu after 5 games. So how long should you give a manager? It’s instructive to look at the 2013/14 season. Derby sacked Clough after 9 games, which does not seem unreasonable. Hardly knee jerk you might say. In those 9 games Derby took 11 points and scored 1.6 goals per game Later that season we played that same 9 teams again, because that’s how it works, and took 12 points. Overall we averaged 1.8 goals per game in the remaining 37 fixtures, so one point more and one extra goal every five games. Given the narrative of Clough being a failure / McClaren a success it is instructive. This is the point where fellow Derby fans steam in and say ‘style of play’, ‘attacking football’ ‘Non-league Nigel..etc which is fine, I have no axe to grind, but if we focus on tangible things like points and goals per game then we should ask was even 9 games enough to draw a correct conclusion? The 9 teams in questions comprised 5 of the final top 8, so in hindsight it was quite a tough start but crucially no-one knew it was a tough start. Stop someone in the street, anywhere from Saipan to Singapore and the two things they are likely to be able to tell you are: Messi is good at football and anyone can beat anyone in the Championship. It’s become so self-evident that it’s often used as a selling point for the league. But despite knowing this we still rank clubs in the; ‘we should be beating them,’ category, primarily based on the size of support and history. So, who is to say what sort of start is easy and which is hard? In those 9 games we lost or drew with these ‘teams we should be beating’. Leicester, Brighton, Burnley, Reading, Blackburn. Now in hindsight you can see that they were pretty good teams but at the time our fan base would quite reasonably expect us to beat all those teams. It begs the question, is the same true of today? Fans are calling for Cocu’s head because we have lost to Reading, Luton, Blackburn as ‘we should be beating them’ and Watford and Huddersfiled but what if they turn out to be top 6? Granted, it’s not that likely and Huddersfield definitely won’t, but it does highlight the problem with recency bias when deciding if the manager should stay or go. Another factor to consider is the circumstances around the club. Back in 2013, the manager was tasked with massively cutting the wage bill. The likes of Savage, Vardy, Leacock, Shackell and Brayford, had been shipped out over the previous two years and Richard Keogh, Chris Martin, Johnny Russel, Craig Forsyth, and John Eustace brought in, supplemented by home-grown talents in Hendrick, Hughes, and O’Brien. Forward wind 6 years and repeat. Cocu lost the 3 best players in Tomori, Wilson and Mount alongside a number of other experienced pros plus Keogh early in the season and has replaced them with half a team of new signing and bedded in Knight, Bird, Sibley, Buchannan and Sibley. Could this year’s vintage take off in the same way as the 2013 team? There are enough parallels for some guarded optimism and reason to think that 5 games is a bit too early to be pulling the trigger. This is probably the point where many would say: “But it’s not 5 games, he’s had a year to sort this out.” And yes, that’s true. Can anyone sense a ‘but’ heading over the horizon? That logic assumes that a manager has been able to buy his own players, developed a reasonably settled team, and has them playing his brand of football. Only two players from Cocu’s first game in charge featured in the first game of this season. Matt Clarke who played 90 minutes in both games and Jason Knight who played 12 minutes as a sub in the Huddersfield game. It is clear that this is a work in progress, and I guess the issue is whether you feel that progress is happening fast enough. Finally, there is always the comparison with someone else, someone better. A common stick used to beat a manager with is that they are not as good as so and so at such and such. I recently read someone complaining that Bielsa managed to turn Leeds around with no money so we should sack Cocu. Leaving the argument about whether Leeds have spent any money to one side, just think that through. Bielsa is a better coach / manager than Cocu. Yes, I think most people in football, from Guardiola down would agree with that. But unless you are planning to replace Cocu with Bielsa, so what? There is always going to be someone doing better somewhere else but unless you are planning to poach them then it seems like a pretty poor reason to sack your manager. How long is too long? It’s hard to say and each manager obviously has a shelf-life, whether you are Paul Ince or Arsene Wenger but I’d argue that Cocu has not had long enough. NB. This article is available on RamsReview podcast site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Vardy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanoakaram4life Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 10 minutes ago, Truckle said: 10 games minimum, here's why. We often hear that you shouldn’t judge a season until after 10 games but that hasn’t stopped a significant portion of Derby fans calling for the sacking of Philip Cocu after 5 games. So how long should you give a manager? It’s instructive to look at the 2013/14 season. Derby sacked Clough after 9 games, which does not seem unreasonable. Hardly knee jerk you might say. In those 9 games Derby took 11 points and scored 1.6 goals per game Later that season we played that same 9 teams again, because that’s how it works, and took 12 points. Overall we averaged 1.8 goals per game in the remaining 37 fixtures, so one point more and one extra goal every five games. Given the narrative of Clough being a failure / McClaren a success it is instructive. This is the point where fellow Derby fans steam in and say ‘style of play’, ‘attacking football’ ‘Non-league Nigel..etc which is fine, I have no axe to grind, but if we focus on tangible things like points and goals per game then we should ask was even 9 games enough to draw a correct conclusion? The 9 teams in questions comprised 5 of the final top 8, so in hindsight it was quite a tough start but crucially no-one knew it was a tough start. Stop someone in the street, anywhere from Saipan to Singapore and the two things they are likely to be able to tell you are: Messi is good at football and anyone can beat anyone in the Championship. It’s become so self-evident that it’s often used as a selling point for the league. But despite knowing this we still rank clubs in the; ‘we should be beating them,’ category, primarily based on the size of support and history. So, who is to say what sort of start is easy and which is hard? In those 9 games we lost or drew with these ‘teams we should be beating’. Leicester, Brighton, Burnley, Reading, Blackburn. Now in hindsight you can see that they were pretty good teams but at the time our fan base would quite reasonably expect us to beat all those teams. It begs the question, is the same true of today? Fans are calling for Cocu’s head because we have lost to Reading, Luton, Blackburn as ‘we should be beating them’ and Watford and Huddersfiled but what if they turn out to be top 6? Granted, it’s not that likely and Huddersfield definitely won’t, but it does highlight the problem with recency bias when deciding if the manager should stay or go. Another factor to consider is the circumstances around the club. Back in 2013, the manager was tasked with massively cutting the wage bill. The likes of Savage, Vardy, Leacock, Shackell and Brayford, had been shipped out over the previous two years and Richard Keogh, Chris Martin, Johnny Russel, Craig Forsyth, and John Eustace brought in, supplemented by home-grown talents in Hendrick, Hughes, and O’Brien. Forward wind 6 years and repeat. Cocu lost the 3 best players in Tomori, Wilson and Mount alongside a number of other experienced pros plus Keogh early in the season and has replaced them with half a team of new signing and bedded in Knight, Bird, Sibley, Buchannan and Sibley. Could this year’s vintage take off in the same way as the 2013 team? There are enough parallels for some guarded optimism and reason to think that 5 games is a bit too early to be pulling the trigger. This is probably the point where many would say: “But it’s not 5 games, he’s had a year to sort this out.” And yes, that’s true. Can anyone sense a ‘but’ heading over the horizon? That logic assumes that a manager has been able to buy his own players, developed a reasonably settled team, and has them playing his brand of football. Only two players from Cocu’s first game in charge featured in the first game of this season. Matt Clarke who played 90 minutes in both games and Jason Knight who played 12 minutes as a sub in the Huddersfield game. It is clear that this is a work in progress, and I guess the issue is whether you feel that progress is happening fast enough. Finally, there is always the comparison with someone else, someone better. A common stick used to beat a manager with is that they are not as good as so and so at such and such. I recently read someone complaining that Bielsa managed to turn Leeds around with no money so we should sack Cocu. Leaving the argument about whether Leeds have spent any money to one side, just think that through. Bielsa is a better coach / manager than Cocu. Yes, I think most people in football, from Guardiola down would agree with that. But unless you are planning to replace Cocu with Bielsa, so what? There is always going to be someone doing better somewhere else but unless you are planning to poach them then it seems like a pretty poor reason to sack your manager. How long is too long? It’s hard to say and each manager obviously has a shelf-life, whether you are Paul Ince or Arsene Wenger but I’d argue that Cocu has not had long enough. NB. This article is available on RamsReview podcast site If Cocu's playing style was a post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Martin Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 Well 10 games in and it literally could not be any worse. 1 goal from open play after almost a quarter of a season is absolutely undefendable in my opinion. all those people saying give him 10 games etc, etc, i'm sorry but you cannot make any excuses anymore i see absolutely no improvement in play since Cocu's first game in charge of the club. Go on, prove me wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC Kicks Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 27 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said: Go on, prove me wrong... I can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 28 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said: Well 10 games in and it literally could not be any worse. 1 goal from open play after almost a quarter of a season is absolutely undefendable in my opinion. all those people saying give him 10 games etc, etc, i'm sorry but you cannot make any excuses anymore i see absolutely no improvement in play since Cocu's first game in charge of the club. Go on, prove me wrong... We may have got worse. Prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Buckley’s Dog Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 On 22/10/2020 at 15:52, Jourdan said: Cocu just needs a good week really to buy himself some more time. If we could avoid defeat in the next three - say getting one win and two draws - there would be something to build on and it would be the strongest sign yet that the players are still with Cocu. On current form, no-one is expecting much if anything from the next three, so we just need to see something to hold onto. That’s all we’re looking for really. Signs. Not nine or ten wins in a row, but just some suggestion that things can be turned around. It’s very difficult to point to signs when we are even losing the games that you would earmark as ones that might bring some relief. I would agree with that if perhaps you change two of the letters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggyram59 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 None he should be sacked this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambalin Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 6 hours ago, Chris_Martin said: Well 10 games in and it literally could not be any worse. 1 goal from open play after almost a quarter of a season is absolutely undefendable in my opinion. all those people saying give him 10 games etc, etc, i'm sorry but you cannot make any excuses anymore i see absolutely no improvement in play since Cocu's first game in charge of the club. Go on, prove me wrong... Its three goals from open play Knight v Preston, Marriott v Luton and Shinnie v Bournemouthm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 4 hours ago, Rambalin said: Its three goals from open play Knight v Preston, Marriott v Luton and Shinnie v Bournemouthm Preston was the cup, and I think Shinnie's goal was a 2nd phase from a set piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 6 hours ago, ziggyram59 said: None he should be sacked this morning. Were he as honourable as is being suggested he should do a 'by mutual consent' deal with Mel, but I bet he's too stubborn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Were he as honourable as is being suggested he should do a 'by mutual consent' deal with Mel, but I bet he's too stubborn! I have been surprised by his stubborn reaction in his interviews of late,he seems to be in some sort of denial as to what is going on before his eyes. I agree though,I thought that he may resign if it got to this stage as he appears to be an honourable man. It may well come to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Martin Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Rambalin said: Its three goals from open play Knight v Preston, Marriott v Luton and Shinnie v Bournemouthm You can't count the Shinnie goal as open play. it was from a deflected free kick! And the Knight goal wasn't in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OohMartWright Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 Just now, Chris_Martin said: You can't count the Shinnie goal as open play. it was from a deflected free kick! And the Knight goal wasn't in the league. So how many players have to touch it after a free kick before it counts as open play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBG83 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 I don't think the question should be how much time he is given, but how much money would you trust him with if we're taken over?. I'm torn on this. I feel like Cocu has had a terrible experience with Derby so far. Much of which is not his fault. Formation changes and substitutions are his fault. I can't decide if he could be our 'Fergie' with a bit of luck. Bringing through youth and mixing with experience (I don't count Rooney because he eye is on Cocu's position) with a pot of gold. Does he deserve a proper funds bank to play with? or is he done for regardless? We are on a knife edge with this take over. He's gone if it doesn't happen and I think we are then even worse off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil62uk Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 I've backed him since day one , fought his corner on here , always gave him the benefit of the doubt . After lastnight I've finally had enough of him Let's look at the bigger picture he,s a millionaire ( or should be ) which most of us on here are not . People say it's not nice to see people out of work ( which is true ) ... so in theory if he is sacked HE WONT STARVE and will walk away with a substantial amount of money so i wouldn't pity him I can't see him turning us around , he,s out of his depth... and the sooner he's gone the better I will feel about my beloved club . Therefore if he is sacked ( and quite rightly in my opinion ) ...who is to take over the resigns at Derby County ... there's an abundance of managers who are in and out of jobs whom would possibly jump at the chance of managing Derby County ..would they be the right fit ...? Whom knows ...but Cocu certainly isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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