A Bright Future?

[ilkleyram]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

For those of us who have been around awhile, we’ve been here before.

we once had an A team that included steve cherry, david Hunt, Alan cork, steve Ketteridge, Paul Bartlett, Andy crawford, Colin chesters, Frank Sheridan,  etc etc .they were all highly rated much as today’s young players are . None played at the highest level.

I’m not sure whether any of the current u23 side are any better, but I’m happy to go on that journey with them and hope that they succeed. (I exclude knight and Sibley from that list. Knight in particular is outstanding for his age). I’m totally happy for us to build a team around them. I know that they are inexperienced, Inconsistent and under sized. I know they will make errors, but I’m really not bothered.  There’s something about their enthusiasm that wins my vote. I’d be quite happy to play more of them provided we have enough senior pros in support to help them learn the game. I see other clubs be brave by playing youngsters and I’m happy for us to be equally brave. Look at heerenveen, 9 of their most picked 13 players are aged 18-22, and they are equal top of their league. 

however, I get no thrill whatsoever from selling players. I find it bizarre that we should get some kind of vicarious thrill from watching hendrick or Hughes, Lowe or bogle, playing in the Prem for other clubs. No way. I’m happy for us to avoid spending transfer fees we can’t afford, but I’m not interested in the business model of being a selling club. I like the idea of building something. let’s build a team and a squad based on good young players and bargain buys, but never accept the fate of being a feeder club for others. 

as Brian clough once said “ I am idealistic. I do believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden”. We were once bigger than Chelsea, and Villa and Leicester, never mind West Ham, Southampton, palace, Brighton, West Brom, Burnley, Sheffield United and Fulham.
 

And we will be again.

 

 

 

Agree with the vast majority of this @RamNut but it’s probably fair to point out that both Steve Cherry and Alan Cork did play at the highest club level - Division 1/PL - quite a lot of times and over several seasons. And Alan Cork won an Fa Cup winners medal For Wimbledon v Liverpool.  Steve Cherry played a few games for us in Division 1 as well I think

[Millenniumram]

26 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

While I don't disagree that youngsters can be rushed (our over-reliance and expectation on Sibley after the Millwall hattrick is the best example of that), the timing of this post is slightly awkward. I thought Buchanan was fantastic on Saturday all afternoon, and Whittaker changed the game when he came on. 

This doesn't necessarily disprove what you've said but I do wonder whether they'd be at the level they are and capable of making an impact now if they hadn't been blooded last season?

Yeah I agree, Buchanan was immense the other day and Whittaker changed the game when he came on. I’m only really talking about last season to be fair. Maybe throwing them in early did help them to adjust this season, but I’m not sure it’s that simple. Difficult for any of us to be sure, but I’d hazard a guess that the regular game time they got in pre season was probably more helpful in terms of settling them into the first team.

[RamNut]

43 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Sorry to be a pedant but Steve Cherry & Alan Cork did play at the top level. Cherry with Notts County at end of 80s, very early 90s & Alan Cork with Wimbledon from 1986 onwards.

Your definition of top level is a bit different to mine.

[AutoWindscreens]

2 hours ago, RamNut said:

For those of us who have been around awhile, we’ve been here before.

we once had an A team that included steve cherry, david Hunt, Alan cork, steve Ketteridge, Paul Bartlett, Andy crawford, Colin chesters, Frank Sheridan,  etc etc .they were all highly rated much as today’s young players are . None played at the highest level.

I’m not sure whether any of the current u23 side are any better, but I’m happy to go on that journey with them and hope that they succeed. (I exclude knight and Sibley from that list. Knight in particular is outstanding for his age). I’m totally happy for us to build a team around them. I know that they are inexperienced, Inconsistent and under sized. I know they will make errors, but I’m really not bothered.  There’s something about their enthusiasm that wins my vote. I’d be quite happy to play more of them provided we have enough senior pros in support to help them learn the game. I see other clubs be brave by playing youngsters and I’m happy for us to be equally brave. Look at heerenveen, 9 of their most picked 13 players are aged 18-22, and they are equal top of their league. 

however, I get no thrill whatsoever from selling players. I find it bizarre that we should get some kind of vicarious thrill from watching hendrick or Hughes, Lowe or bogle, playing in the Prem for other clubs. No way. I’m happy for us to avoid spending transfer fees we can’t afford, but I’m not interested in the business model of being a selling club. I like the idea of building something. let’s build a team and a squad based on good young players and bargain buys, but never accept the fate of being a feeder club for others. 

as Brian clough once said “ I am idealistic. I do believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden”. We were once bigger than Chelsea, and Villa and Leicester, never mind West Ham, Southampton, palace, Brighton, West Brom, Burnley, Sheffield United and Fulham.
 

And we will be again.

 

 

 

Nice one

[Brammie Steve]

12 hours ago, GenBr said:

Not everyone has to post the same thing.

His comment is fair. Just because we give young players a lot of minutes doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean they are any good. 

Whilst i am glad to see our academy producing so many talented individuals it still has a way to go to produce players equalling those from the academies of the top clubs in the country.

I might agree were it not for the fact that our 'youngsters' are not just giving a good account of themselves against u/18s, u/23s etc from 'big' teams, we are outplaying and beating them!

Just watch some of our games at Loughborough Uni!

[YorkshireRam]

11 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Yeah I agree, Buchanan was immense the other day and Whittaker changed the game when he came on. I’m only really talking about last season to be fair. Maybe throwing them in early did help them to adjust this season, but I’m not sure it’s that simple. Difficult for any of us to be sure, but I’d hazard a guess that the regular game time they got in pre season was probably more helpful in terms of settling them into the first team.

Potentially, it's likely a combination of every scrap of experience they got here and there. Balance is key, and now that we've got a more robust squad with more experience, Cocu should find this balance easier to strike so we don't put unnecessary pressure on any of the young lads

[Marriot Ram99]

I'm not sure I was watching the same game but for me Buchanan was average,  he left his man open 3 times completely open. One which Marshall saved him, 2 others and possibly more where he was way too narrow following the Forsyth school of defending which left his man completely open down the right. Also, although he had energy going forward he showed very little quality with the ball and couldn't pick out any of our attackers on one occasion where he ran with the ball into space and won a corner but could have easily put a ball into the box but dallied on it. Not a bad performance but the fact he made about 4 obvious errors means it certainly wasn't a good performance.  His positioning is non league level for me, really needs to be taught how to position himself defensively. Personally would hope we could get someone better in at left back if we have aspirations of top 6 and loan him out to a league 1 or 2 side. 

[GenBr]

4 hours ago, Brummie Steve said:

I might agree were it not for the fact that our 'youngsters' are not just giving a good account of themselves against u/18s, u/23s etc from 'big' teams, we are outplaying and beating them!

Just watch some of our games at Loughborough Uni!

Again doesn't mean anything in senior football. Our academy hasn't produced anyone of the quality of Greenwood, Rashford, Mount, Wilson or Foden. You could argue maybe Delap will reach that level, but we won't see the benefit at our club. I've seen plenty of the games at youth level, but as i've said it doesn't mean anything further along the line.  If everyone else is only going to play these same youth players at senior level then we are set, but we know even at our club most of these players won't make it through. I do think the youth strategy is great, but success at youth level doesn't mean anything for success anywhere else. 

[Brammie Steve]

9 minutes ago, GenBr said:

Again doesn't mean anything in senior football. Our academy hasn't produced anyone of the quality of Greenwood, Rashford, Mount, Wilson or Foden. You could argue maybe Delap will reach that level, but we won't see the benefit at our club. I've seen plenty of the games at youth level, but as i've said it doesn't mean anything further along the line.  If everyone else is only going to play these same youth players at senior level then we are set, but we know even at our club most of these players won't make it through. I do think the youth strategy is great, but success at youth level doesn't mean anything for success anywhere else. 

You are our academy motivator and I claim my £5!

[Rampage]

2 hours ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

I'm not sure I was watching the same game but for me Buchanan was average,  he left his man open 3 times completely open. One which Marshall saved him, 2 others and possibly more where he was way too narrow following the Forsyth school of defending which left his man completely open down the right. Also, although he had energy going forward he showed very little quality with the ball and couldn't pick out any of our attackers on one occasion where he ran with the ball into space and won a corner but could have easily put a ball into the box but dallied on it. Not a bad performance but the fact he made about 4 obvious errors means it certainly wasn't a good performance.  His positioning is non league level for me, really needs to be taught how to position himself defensively. Personally would hope we could get someone better in at left back if we have aspirations of top 6 and loan him out to a league 1 or 2 side. 

At the moment we are a below average Championship team. We are striving to be average (mid table) with a view to pushing for a top six place. We will see. When we get a striker we will have little excuse if we do not climb the table.

[Marriot Ram99]

4 hours ago, Rampage said:

At the moment we are a below average Championship team. We are striving to be average (mid table) with a view to pushing for a top six place. We will see. When we get a striker we will have little excuse if we do not climb the table.

Our squad is definitely top 6 quality if Ibe and Bielik stay fit and play to their potential, if we finish lower than 12th it would be a big failure to me.  Its only early days yet I was very annoyed after the Blackburn game and felt down about our chances but I still feel we should be pushing for top 6.

 

[cheron85]

I thunk we also need to remember with this that most of these guys are in their first season as first team squad players - You'd hope they're only going to get stronger from here

Buchanan - Looks solid defensively when he's paying attention and exciting going forward - I also think he looks taller this year? Needs to cut out the ball watching which he's guilty of a couple of times a game but should come with experience

Bird - Was the most impressive last year because he has great ball skills and vision - Needs more confidence and if he's going to be deep-lying a better sense of positioning and the ability to tackle or intercept

Sibley - Exciting talent, needs nurturing - Has suffered this season from being the only creative player at times so people put 3 men to mark him - Once he's coming in and out of the team rotating with Lawrence and Jozwiak and Ibe he'll have so much more freedom

Whittaker - Has started to look so much better this season - Needs confidence - A great winger/forward should be a bit cocky and he doesn't have that at this level at the moment - Once he realises he can mix it at this level he should fly

Knight - For me the best of the lot - He runs forever, he tackles, he has a cracking shot, he can spot a pass - He's Bryson with bite (for me) and a player like that can be invaluable - Covers more ground than everyone, always available for an 'easy pass' and can drive forward with the ball when needed

Special mentions for Ebosele who looks useful, Jordan Brown who I thought looked tidy and energetic and Hector-Ingram who shaped himself brilliantly for that unlucky chance against Luton(?)

And then the fact that we're a destination of choice for young players is made obvious by signing Bobby Duncan - Whether he turns out to be good or not his reputation previously suggests our academy is being envied by players and not just other clubs

[BathRam72]

On 06/10/2020 at 14:49, Rab a dab doo said:

Unfortunately, most football supporters are impatient and want 'jam today'.

In some ways the young players are lucky that their not playing in front of big crowds.

When things are not going right for the team despondency and verbal disappointment from stands quickly permeates from the stands to the players. 

Blooding teenagers has become a necessity not a choice due to the 'financial sins' of the past.

This however maybe the only route to both our salvation from our financial woes and our route to the promised land. 

I agree with this, especially with the current situation (no crowds, lack of money coming in) on top of financial sins. We could be in a great place if we stick with it.

[IslandExile]

12 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I thunk we also need to remember with this that most of these guys are in their first season as first team squad players - You'd hope they're only going to get stronger from here

Buchanan - Looks solid defensively when he's paying attention and exciting going forward - I also think he looks taller this year? Needs to cut out the ball watching which he's guilty of a couple of times a game but should come with experience

Bird - Was the most impressive last year because he has great ball skills and vision - Needs more confidence and if he's going to be deep-lying a better sense of positioning and the ability to tackle or intercept

Sibley - Exciting talent, needs nurturing - Has suffered this season from being the only creative player at times so people put 3 men to mark him - Once he's coming in and out of the team rotating with Lawrence and Jozwiak and Ibe he'll have so much more freedom

Whittaker - Has started to look so much better this season - Needs confidence - A great winger/forward should be a bit cocky and he doesn't have that at this level at the moment - Once he realises he can mix it at this level he should fly

Knight - For me the best of the lot - He runs forever, he tackles, he has a cracking shot, he can spot a pass - He's Bryson with bite (for me) and a player like that can be invaluable - Covers more ground than everyone, always available for an 'easy pass' and can drive forward with the ball when needed

Special mentions for Ebosele who looks useful, Jordan Brown who I thought looked tidy and energetic and Hector-Ingram who shaped himself brilliantly for that unlucky chance against Luton(?)

And then the fact that we're a destination of choice for young players is made obvious by signing Bobby Duncan - Whether he turns out to be good or not his reputation previously suggests our academy is being envied by players and not just other clubs

Fair assessment.

I think the ball is played in behind Buchanan quite often, maybe because of the ball watching you mention. I am sure he will improve with experience.

I would like to see Whittaker tried down the middle as a centre forward but, as you and other have repeated, to do that he needs to be more assertive.

The main thing with kids is achieving consistency. One of the great things about Cocu is his experience in this area and he has spoken about taking young players out of the team at intervals as part of their development. I believe he will manage them very well.

One last thing....forwards....we're excited by Duncan, JHI and Whittaker are getting minutes but what about Stretton - he seems to score goals. What do those that watch the academy more than me think of him?

[Ghost of Clough]

I figured I would revisit this thread and provide an update. @86 Hair Islands started this thread with a graph of minutes given to teenagers vs teenagers used, whereas I'm doing minutes given to players 21 and under vs academy player minutes, and Championship only. It also isn't as colourful ?

It's interesting to note the top two clubs (Derby & Blackburn) are the 2 teams in PL2 Div1, with 4 of the next 5 in PL2 Div 2 (the other being Swansea who stepped down from Cat 1 this season). 
Derby currently rank 3rd for both minutes given to U21 players and minutes given to academy graduates

[Ghost of Clough]

Derby have 3 of the top 10 players for most used teenagers in the Championship. Elliott, Garner, and Parrott on loan from PL clubs, Esteves on loan from Porto.

[BramcoteRam84]

Quite often playing youngsters out of necessity is the only way to bring them through. Would Hughes and Hendrick have had the same opportunities had they broken through in 15/16 when we were splashing money about? Clough played them out of necessity.

Whether we’re playing youngsters out of necessity or not you still have to have enough youngsters who could make the grade to blood. Under the three amigos we didn’t have a pot to piss in, and we didn’t have any good young talent (Huddlestone aside). Now not only do we have seriously good young talent we have players coming up behind them in the academy with serious talent. We’ve never had that. When have we had a situation like with Lowe - outcry when we sold him (from me included), but now it transpires we sold him because Buchanan is even better. Likewise we sell Lowe, get experienced pro in Byrne to cover the gap because we have McDonald and Ebsolele coming through!!

There is a lot to be positive about. Only way it becomes a negative is if we have to sell them ALL and the only way that will happen is administration and despite the uncertainty and the speculation of many on here, that isn’t happening right now.

 

[Rab a dab doo]

You are obviously one of life's optimists.

We need more like yourself on the forum to shake us out of this morose state of doom and gloom. 

[Rample]

If only it were all about potential. 

What we've failed with so many times in the past, is properly nurturing the talent at our disposal.

How many times has someone from the u23s broken into the first team squad, but then just seems to stagnate at that level. 

Not sure if players are just then handled like adults going forward, but off the top of my head Lowe, Bogle, Hendrick, Hughes didn't seem to improve their game any further after stepping up. 

Knight is an evident self motivated individual, but could see Sibley and Bird benefitting from a little more shaping to enable them to reach their potential. 

[sage]

14 minutes ago, Rample said:

If only it were all about potential. 

What we've failed with so many times in the past, is properly nurturing the talent at our disposal.

How many times has someone from the u23s broken into the first team squad, but then just seems to stagnate at that level. 

Not sure if players are just then handled like adults going forward, but off the top of my head Lowe, Bogle, Hendrick, Hughes didn't seem to improve their game any further after stepping up. 

Knight is an evident self motivated individual, but could see Sibley and Bird benefitting from a little more shaping to enable them to reach their potential. 

So Hughes and Hendrick stagnated?