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A Bright Future?


Comrade 86

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2 minutes ago, GenBr said:

Not everyone has to post the same thing.

His comment is fair. Just because we give young players a lot of minutes doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean they are any good. 

Whilst i am glad to see our academy producing so many talented individuals it still has a way to go to produce players equalling those from the academies of the top clubs in the country.

Am glad you managed to convey more eloquently than myself the point I was trying to put across. Negatively apparently.

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30 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Neither Buchanan or Whittaker were ready enough to be playing any football last season Imo. To be fair, we were well covered at LB so Buchanan didn’t play a lot, but we left ourselves way too short up front. Whittaker should have been playing regular U23 football, not a few minutes every game at first team level. That lack of a quality signing in the wide areas cost us last season more than anything else imo.

I’d say Knight was rushed through a little early as well. By the new year I think he started showing what he was capable of, but early in the season he looked lost. Again, too much pressure on him because we signed a dud in Dowell. Sibley had an impressive couple of games I agree, but even he had too much pressure on him too early imo. He was, and still is, very raw - yet we’ve been relying on him to be our main threat almost, week in, week out. He’s still too young to be relied upon as a key player imo - hopefully the signings we’ve made on the wings will allow Lawrence to play in number 10 and reduce the pressure on Sibley to perform. 

It’s only Bird who we handled perfectly imo. Gave him the time to adapt after he made the odd appearance under Lampard, and we’re now reading the benefits of that patience. That has to be the blueprint going forward imo. Don’t leave ourselves short at first team level so we end up forcing young players through early. Let them come through at their own pace, when they’re ready, and you will see the long term benefits.

Not sure what you expect from less than 300 minutes of football in the league. 1 goal and 1 assist is a very good return for a backup in this division

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42 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Am glad you managed to convey more eloquently than myself the point I was trying to put across. Negatively apparently.

I generally agree with much of the original post but also don’t fall out with the sentiment of your post either. It is possible to have a view which mainly points in a certain direction whilst having considerations that represent a risk or challenge within it. The thing I find more negative is people trying to close others down with catch all accusations of being wrists slashers or happy clappers to halt debate.

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6 minutes ago, Orphanram said:

I generally agree with much of the original post but also don’t fall out with the sentiment of your post either. It is possible to have a view which mainly points in a certain direction whilst having considerations that represent a risk or challenge within it. The thing I find more negative is people trying to close others down with catch all accusations of being wrists slashers or happy clappers to halt debate.

I believe that's called a balanced argument, absolutely.

The pigeonholing of posters is also something which I've bemoaned on other threads prior to today. 

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3 minutes ago, GenBr said:

Not everyone has to post the same thing.

His comment is fair. Just because we give young players a lot of minutes doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean they are any good. 

Whilst i am glad to see our academy producing so many talented individuals it still has a way to go to produce players equalling those from the academies of the top clubs in the country.

No of course they don't. He's allowed to post his opinion and I'm allowed to post mine, which in this instance happens to be that I think he's being overly pessimistic.

This is extremely postive news for the club no matter which way anyone tries to spin it. Why youngsters are getting minutes is completely irrelevant, what matters most is that they're being allowed to develop at the senior level. As you say, some of the players who we've given minutes to might not be good enough eventually but exposure to first team football increases their value should they be moved on in the future. More importantly though is the image this portrays to prospective players, parents and agents who are looking at the club from the outside. By giving youngsters so many first team opportunities we're demonstrating that you have more of a chance to breakthrough at Derby than anywhere else in the country. I suspect this is a big reason why the likes of Bobby Duncan, Seb Thompson and Ola Ibrahim have made the move from the academies of high profile clubs to our academy, there's a very clear and obvious pathway to our first team. So while the players getting gametime at the moment might not all make it all the way to the Premier League, the fact that they're playing sends out a very positive message to future prospects.

Mel Morris has made it very clear in the past that the academy is an absolute priority for the club. Since he's started investing heavily in the project at Moor Farm, we've won the u18 Premier League, competed in the Youth Champions League and now have the highest number of senior minutes for teenagers in the country. Yes we're not at the level of the big 6 in terms of our academy but we're certainly closing the gap at a very rapid pace. Personally I think the club deserves a lot of credit for that.

On a side note, I also disagree with the notion that we're only giving out so many minutes due to 'sheer necessity to make numbers up and field a side.' There's been plenty of occasions this season and last where Cocu has chosen to bring on a youngster over a senior member of the first team. Personally I'm much happier to see Whittaker given more gametime to develop over someone like Jozefzoon, even if they yielded similar performances at times last year. While results on the pitch have been less that satisfactory so far this season and I understand many posters frustrations with that, I think Cocu at least deserves some kudos for how many minutes he's given to the youth.

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1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Not sure what you expect from less than 300 minutes of football in the league. 1 goal and 1 assist is a very good return for a backup in this division

Both in a dead rubber at the end of the season though, nothing beforehand. It’s not about the numbers mind, it’s about impact. Whittaker made precious little last season, you need someone coming off the bench who can change a game. That’s not to say I don’t rate Whittaker, his record at youth level speaks for himself, but he wasn’t ready last season. We could have made playoffs had we signed Jozwiak in January imo (if Wisdom had stayed fit anyway).

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5 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

All been a bit doom and gloom from some quarters thus far this season, but there remain a deal of reasons to be optimistic as to the club's future. Not least of these is the wealth of talent we seen emerging from the academy as illustrated in the graphic below.

While our young'uns have some way to go yet to fully cement themselves in a side capable of topping the league, few if any clubs can match the efforts of Darren Wassall and our team coaches and I feel strongly that we in Cocu, we have one of the best in the business to further develop the likes of Sibley, Bird, Knight, JMH, Whittaker and co, not to mention even younger players now starting to blossom, the most exciting of whom to my eye remains Festy Ebosele.

Their ongoing immersion in the men's game can only be a positive for the future of the club from both a footballing and commercial standpoint, so whilst we've endured a trying start to the season, I feel sure we'll be looking a rather different prospect within the year. Patience will be key, however! 

image.thumb.png.ecc2bc16def7c5888b6feac3e0612efe.png

COYR

It’s a fantastic position for the club to be in. Unfortunately just because they are playing now and getting experience etc doesn’t automatically mean they’ll be anywhere near a 1st team or playing at this level in years to come. So many who have broke into the 1st team in their teens have failed to push on, let’s hope our crop do. 

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36 minutes ago, lrm14 said:

No of course they don't. He's allowed to post his opinion and I'm allowed to post mine, which in this instance happens to be that I think he's being overly pessimistic.

This is extremely postive news for the club no matter which way anyone tries to spin it. Why youngsters are getting minutes is completely irrelevant, what matters most is that they're being allowed to develop at the senior level. As you say, some of the players who we've given minutes to might not be good enough eventually but exposure to first team football increases their value should they be moved on in the future. More importantly though is the image this portrays to prospective players, parents and agents who are looking at the club from the outside. By giving youngsters so many first team opportunities we're demonstrating that you have more of a chance to breakthrough at Derby than anywhere else in the country. I suspect this is a big reason why the likes of Bobby Duncan, Seb Thompson and Ola Ibrahim have made the move from the academies of high profile clubs to our academy, there's a very clear and obvious pathway to our first team. So while the players getting gametime at the moment might not all make it all the way to the Premier League, the fact that they're playing sends out a very positive message to future prospects.

Mel Morris has made it very clear in the past that the academy is an absolute priority for the club. Since he's started investing heavily in the project at Moor Farm, we've won the u18 Premier League, competed in the Youth Champions League and now have the highest number of senior minutes for teenagers in the country. Yes we're not at the level of the big 6 in terms of our academy but we're certainly closing the gap at a very rapid pace. Personally I think the club deserves a lot of credit for that.

On a side note, I also disagree with the notion that we're only giving out so many minutes due to 'sheer necessity to make numbers up and field a side.' There's been plenty of occasions this season and last where Cocu has chosen to bring on a youngster over a senior member of the first team. Personally I'm much happier to see Whittaker given more gametime to develop over someone like Jozefzoon, even if they yielded similar performances at times last year. While results on the pitch have been less that satisfactory so far this season and I understand many posters frustrations with that, I think Cocu at least deserves some kudos for how many minutes he's given to the youth.

Yes you are allowed to give your opinion, but just posting that you think someone is being overly negative is nonsense. Just posting an attack because you don't like what he is saying is not conducive to anything - you are just trying to shut down opposing viewpoints. You have elaborated on your viewpoint further here, which is great and helps to create further discussion, but none of this was included in your original post. I'm not the forum policeman, so not really my place to say anything about it, but I don't really think people's posts should be attacked just because their views aren't in lockstep with the majority of the forum.

Your opinion is that just playing youth players is a good thing. Giving them minutes isn't really indicative of anything to me - if we can see them developing in the first team then sure that is great, but just playing time is a nothing statistic. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that playing youth players is a bad thing or is an invalid strategy, but just because we played the most youth players for the most amount of time doesn't mean our academy is any better than anyone else's. It's good that they are starting to come through the system, but you'd have to compare other metrics if we want to compare quality rather than quantity. I also don't really put much stock in the youth competitions when it comes to senior football - great to win them, but they are no guarantee that any of those players will successfully make the step up (although a great number almost certainly will). Personally I think the best players are still to come from the academy - investment in that side of things has a certain lead time before you start seeing players who have had the full benefit from the increased investment.

 

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1 hour ago, GenBr said:

Whilst i am glad to see our academy producing so many talented individuals it still has a way to go to produce players equalling those from the academies of the top clubs in the country.

Yet our U18's were crowned Premier League National Champions, a campaign that concluded with a 5-2 demolition of Arsenal in the league decider. Along the way they beat Newcastle 8-0, West Brom 5-1 and 5-0, Wolves 6-0, beat Liverpool home and away and secured draws in both games against City. They then proceeded to reach QFs of the U18 Champions League all of which rather begs the question, what would actually qualify as a successful campaign in your estimation? 

And setting your views aside for a moment, other folk who still choose to nit-pick the achievements and benefits of our academy teams still wonder why their views are sometimes deemed to be less than positive!!! ?‍♀️

 

 

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4 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Yet our U18's were crowned Premier League National Champions, a campaign that concluded with a 5-2 demolition of Arsenal in the league decider. Along the way they beat Newcastle 8-0, West Brom 5-1 and 5-0, Wolves 6-0, beat Liverpool home and away and secured draws in both games against City. They then proceeded to reach QFs of the U18 Champions League all of which rather begs the question, what would actually qualify as a successful campaign in your estimation? 

And setting your views aside for a moment, other folk who still choose to nit-pick the achievements and benefits of our academy teams still wonder why their views are sometimes deemed to be less than positive!!! ?‍♀️

 

 

That arsenal contained a number of players now playing regular for an in form arsenal first team which I think speaks to the quality of the likes of Bird, Sibley etc

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For those of us who have been around awhile, we’ve been here before.

we once had an A team that included steve cherry, david Hunt, Alan cork, steve Ketteridge, Paul Bartlett, Andy crawford, Colin chesters, Frank Sheridan,  etc etc .they were all highly rated much as today’s young players are . None played at the highest level.

I’m not sure whether any of the current u23 side are any better, but I’m happy to go on that journey with them and hope that they succeed. (I exclude knight and Sibley from that list. Knight in particular is outstanding for his age). I’m totally happy for us to build a team around them. I know that they are inexperienced, Inconsistent and under sized. I know they will make errors, but I’m really not bothered.  There’s something about their enthusiasm that wins my vote. I’d be quite happy to play more of them provided we have enough senior pros in support to help them learn the game. I see other clubs be brave by playing youngsters and I’m happy for us to be equally brave. Look at heerenveen, 9 of their most picked 13 players are aged 18-22, and they are equal top of their league. 

however, I get no thrill whatsoever from selling players. I find it bizarre that we should get some kind of vicarious thrill from watching hendrick or Hughes, Lowe or bogle, playing in the Prem for other clubs. No way. I’m happy for us to avoid spending transfer fees we can’t afford, but I’m not interested in the business model of being a selling club. I like the idea of building something. let’s build a team and a squad based on good young players and bargain buys, but never accept the fate of being a feeder club for others. 

as Brian clough once said “ I am idealistic. I do believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden”. We were once bigger than Chelsea, and Villa and Leicester, never mind West Ham, Southampton, palace, Brighton, West Brom, Burnley, Sheffield United and Fulham.
 

And we will be again.


 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RamNut said:

For those of us who have been around awhile, we’ve been here before.

we once had an A team that included steve cherry, david Hunt, Alan cork, steve Ketteridge, Paul Bartlett, Andy crawford, Colin chesters, Frank Sheridan,  etc etc .they were all highly rated much as today’s young players are . None played at the highest level.

I’m not sure whether any of the current u23 side are any better, but I’m happy to go on that journey with them and hope that they succeed. (I exclude knight and Sibley from that list. Knight in particular is outstanding for his age). I’m totally happy for us to build a team around them. I know that they are inexperienced, Inconsistent and under sized. I know they will make errors, but I’m really not bothered.  There’s something about their enthusiasm that wins my vote. I’d be quite happy to play more of them provided we have enough senior pros in support to help them learn the game. I see other clubs be brave by playing youngsters and I’m happy for us to be equally brave. Look at heerenveen, 9 of their most picked 13 players are aged 18-22, and they are equal top of their league. 

however, I get no thrill whatsoever from selling players. I find it bizarre that we should get some kind of vicarious thrill from watching hendrick or Hughes, Lowe or bogle, playing in the Prem for other clubs. No way. I’m happy for us to avoid spending transfer fees we can’t afford, but I’m not interested in the business model of being a selling club. I like the idea of building something. let’s build a team and a squad based on good young players and bargain buys, but never accept the fate of being a feeder club for others. 

as Brian clough once said “ I am idealistic. I do believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden”. We were once bigger than Chelsea, and Villa and Leicester, never mind West Ham, Southampton, palace, Brighton, West Brom, Burnley, Sheffield United and Fulham.
 

And we will be again.


 

 

 

I think while we’re a championship club, once players get to a certain level and outgrow the club, I’m more than happy to let them leave if it’s a good deal for the club 

I don’t think we’ll ever be as big as Chelsea sadly but hopefully some of those others 

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1 hour ago, GenBr said:

Yes you are allowed to give your opinion, but just posting that you think someone is being overly negative is nonsense. Just posting an attack because you don't like what he is saying is not conducive to anything - you are just trying to shut down opposing viewpoints. You have elaborated on your viewpoint further here, which is great and helps to create further discussion, but none of this was included in your original post. I'm not the forum policeman, so not really my place to say anything about it, but I don't really think people's posts should be attacked just because their views aren't in lockstep with the majority of the forum.

Your opinion is that just playing youth players is a good thing. Giving them minutes isn't really indicative of anything to me - if we can see them developing in the first team then sure that is great, but just playing time is a nothing statistic. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that playing youth players is a bad thing or is an invalid strategy, but just because we played the most youth players for the most amount of time doesn't mean our academy is any better than anyone else's. It's good that they are starting to come through the system, but you'd have to compare other metrics if we want to compare quality rather than quantity. I also don't really put much stock in the youth competitions when it comes to senior football - great to win them, but they are no guarantee that any of those players will successfully make the step up (although a great number almost certainly will). Personally I think the best players are still to come from the academy - investment in that side of things has a certain lead time before you start seeing players who have had the full benefit from the increased investment.

 

To be fair the original quip / retort was just that. There is always a part of all of us that wants to do a “you would say that wouldn’t you” Or “typical from them”.. thing is we should within bounds accept it as part of the give, take and fun of a forum.

we don’t always, we can’t, we are human.  ! I don’t either. Sometimes I’m grown up and do a bit of give and take, sometimes I pout, spit my dummy out, rise to the bait and cut back. Meh .. come on lads let’s not get too touchy ... Then again sometimes it’s funny when you pull someone’s chain ...  a bit. It’s life. As long as the Intent is harmless and we don’t pull the stuffing out of it .. let’s just go with the flow

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7 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

All been a bit doom and gloom from some quarters thus far this season, but there remain a deal of reasons to be optimistic as to the club's future. Not least of these is the wealth of talent we seen emerging from the academy as illustrated in the graphic below.

While our young'uns have some way to go yet to fully cement themselves in a side capable of topping the league, few if any clubs can match the efforts of Darren Wassall and our team coaches and I feel strongly that we in Cocu, we have one of the best in the business to further develop the likes of Sibley, Bird, Knight, JMH, Whittaker and co, not to mention even younger players now starting to blossom, the most exciting of whom to my eye remains Festy Ebosele.

Their ongoing immersion in the men's game can only be a positive for the future of the club from both a footballing and commercial standpoint, so whilst we've endured a trying start to the season, I feel sure we'll be looking a rather different prospect within the year. Patience will be key, however! 

image.thumb.png.ecc2bc16def7c5888b6feac3e0612efe.png

COYR

 

F3472C86-CA03-4BB1-BCBB-B3E53806C634.jpeg

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1 hour ago, RamNut said:

For those of us who have been around awhile, we’ve been here before.

we once had an A team that included steve cherry, david Hunt, Alan cork, steve Ketteridge, Paul Bartlett, Andy crawford, Colin chesters, Frank Sheridan,  etc etc .they were all highly rated much as today’s young players are . None played at the highest level.

Sorry to be a pedant but Steve Cherry & Alan Cork did play at the top level. Cherry with Notts County at end of 80s, very early 90s & Alan Cork with Wimbledon from 1986 onwards.

As to the general point, I'm very proud of how the club is now structured & the philosophy that young talent will be a key part of this club's DNA. Its a very sustainable way to run a club firstly & whilst I dont want us to be seen as a nursery club, the well timed sale of young assets will enable us to improve the squad overall & eventually establish ourselves in the division above.

Cocu's role in this is key & this long term plan allied to the Dutch influence of technical excellence & development of in game intelligence, could be as revolutionary to Derby as Cruyff's time & La Masia was to Barcelona. We've lacked an identity for years, now we have a plan & a strategy to return to the top. It just needs time & patience and realisation that short term fluctuations in form will happen & shouldn't deviate from the long term goal.

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10 minutes ago, Jram said:

I think while we’re a championship club, once players get to a certain level and outgrow the club, I’m more than happy to let them leave if it’s a good deal for the club 

I don’t think we’ll ever be as big as Chelsea sadly but hopefully some of those others 

Spot on. And we don't become a selling club just because some of our prospects get moved on anyway. That said, I'd much rather us benefit commercially and therefore have the means to further strengthen than watch players run down their contracts and leave on free transfers. It's got nothing to do with vicarious pleasures. 

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2 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Both in a dead rubber at the end of the season though, nothing beforehand. It’s not about the numbers mind, it’s about impact. Whittaker made precious little last season, you need someone coming off the bench who can change a game. That’s not to say I don’t rate Whittaker, his record at youth level speaks for himself, but he wasn’t ready last season. We could have made playoffs had we signed Jozwiak in January imo (if Wisdom had stayed fit anyway).

While I don't disagree that youngsters can be rushed (our over-reliance and expectation on Sibley after the Millwall hattrick is the best example of that), the timing of this post is slightly awkward. I thought Buchanan was fantastic on Saturday all afternoon, and Whittaker changed the game when he came on. 

This doesn't necessarily disprove what you've said but I do wonder whether they'd be at the level they are and capable of making an impact now if they hadn't been blooded last season?

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