Tyler Durden Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 @IanC I won't quote your post as it's extremely verbose but just to pick some points out of it :- It's been consistently proven that not all of the clubs who get relegated from the Premier League and are in receipt of parachute payments then get promoted back up in this timeframe. Ergo there are a consistently a number of clubs who never were in receipt of these payments who do get promoted. Not sure if this is punching above your weight. The effect of Covid 19 wasn't localised to just a square mile around Pride Park so you cant use that as a reason for our poor end to the season, it's a level playing field. Those who didn't adapt as readily as other clubs have only themselves to look at. The rest of your post broadly agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24Charlie Posted September 29, 2020 Author Share Posted September 29, 2020 We generally don't win anything but we still turn up. We scoff at the glory hunters who don't know the agony of relegation or the elation of a play off win. But they are the ones missing out. Not winning is vital to knowing how good winning can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 8 hours ago, 24Charlie said: Before me I see a side developing that could really do something. This is where the difference in opinion lies. No, winning isn't everything. But I don't see the development that you do here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Ram Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 15 hours ago, Tyler Durden said: Quote appalled that such a notion can be entertained so early in the season unquote. What relevance is it so early in the season unless he's only been here from the start of the season. The judgement should be made over the course of the tenure not 3 games. Or if I want to avoid a pedantic debate I'll put implies in my opinion. There you go. I my humble opinion the relevance is ‘would you be saying sack him if those 3 games came in the middle of the season’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 16 hours ago, Marriott Ram99 said: With Corona and our wage bill we will be screwed if we are relegated, not worth thinking about because it would be the end of the line for all our best youngsters as they would all be sold to raise funds. The likes of Bielik, Jozwiak, Waghorn and Lawrence would all be gone. We would only be left with kids who are 17/18 who wouldn't be able to play well in league 1 and our worst players. Then once you are League 1 you can easily become stuck there like Sunderland or drop further like Portsmouth. I think we all got a bit excited when the young guns got picked and played well. There are inevitably going to be tough days as they learn and they may have to sit out a few at times. What’s more worrying is the ‘Rabbit in the headlights’ look I see from more senior players. Every team loses games but ATM we have half a dozen player’s whose form has dipped so dramatically it’s scary. But it is a case of good players playing badly rather than having poor players. Winning isn’t everything short term. As long as we get long term success I’m happy to stand by Cocu and his philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 16 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: I have a Snoopy mug that says "Winning isn't everything, but losing isn't anything". ? My Charlie Brown cartoon says "It makes no difference whether you win or lose, until you lose!" Also "How come we keep losing when we're so sincere?" Steve Brummie still says:- Cocu IN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 16 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: I have a Snoopy mug that says "Winning isn't everything, but losing isn't anything". ? Snoopy mug? I wondered if the number in your name was your age. Now I know ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRam Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 14 hours ago, 24Charlie said: We generally don't win anything but we still turn up. We scoff at the glory hunters who don't know the agony of relegation or the elation of a play off win. But they are the ones missing out. Not winning is vital to knowing how good winning can be. Good post. Man C won (sorry bought) the 3 domestic trophies a year or so ago, not much to aim for now. Have their fans nodded off yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil62uk Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, TimRam said: Good post. Man C won (sorry bought) the 3 domestic trophies a year or so ago, not much to aim for now. Have their fans nodded off yet? If only we had Man City's financial backing ? ... Their fans won't nod off for an eternity ...unlike ours ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 16 hours ago, Millenniumram said: Swear down my mindset couldn’t be further from some on here. Of course winning is everything, it’s the aim of the bloody game. I love seeing young players in our team playing beautiful football, but not if it’s going to see us down to League One! I want to see us winning games, not losing and saying “Oh well, we tried our best, we’re only little old Derby playing a load of 16 year olds”. What a load of absolute baalocks. If Cocu and these young players can’t see us promoted, then we have to bring in a manager and a set of players who can, simple as. The “Let’s just play the youngsters and see where it takes us, results are secondary” type mentality genuinely pains me. I don’t support a football club for its academy, I support a football club to see it win matches. Rant over. But this is the reality of where we are. Mel said the club could not sustain the level of losses it has in the past. The result of that is the necessity to drastically lower the wage bill and sell some of our talent to purchase others that we need to pay a fee for. To achieve this and expect promotion is ridiculous. We all want promotion but to expect promotion is in my opinion just downright unrealistic. Cocu has done his level best to integrate the best of our young talent but as said elsewhere currently they are struggling and the guys we would prefer to rely more on are either injured or unfit. The result of this is where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRam Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, neil62uk said: If only we had Man City's financial backing ? ... Their fans won't nod off for an eternity ...unlike ours ? Even the europa/champions league has been watered down as it's the same old teams and there are a lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil62uk Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, TimRam said: Even the europa/champions league has been watered down as it's the same old teams and there are a lot of them. Couldn't agree more ... we,ll stick with Wycombe , Barnsley and such likes ... wouldn't want europa league at the moment .... possibly in 4 years time WITH HOPE AND ANTICIPATION ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 16 hours ago, Millenniumram said: Swear down my mindset couldn’t be further from some on here. Of course winning is everything, it’s the aim of the bloody game. I love seeing young players in our team playing beautiful football, but not if it’s going to see us down to League One! I want to see us winning games, not losing and saying “Oh well, we tried our best, we’re only little old Derby playing a load of 16 year olds”. What a load of absolute baalocks. If Cocu and these young players can’t see us promoted, then we have to bring in a manager and a set of players who can, simple as. The “Let’s just play the youngsters and see where it takes us, results are secondary” type mentality genuinely pains me. I don’t support a football club for its academy, I support a football club to see it win matches. Rant over. Just to be clear, this isn’t me saying “go and support Man City then” because I really hate that line. But surely if winning was everything, nobody would support Derby, you would just choose to support the most successful teams. There must be other aspects that come into your thinking, presumably locality first and foremost. Of course, we all want Derby to win. No one goes into a Saturday thinking they want Norwich to do us in today actually, but different things resonate with different people. Ethics, morals etc. Not to bring up Joinersgate again but I remember you being vocal that you wanted the protagonists sacked for their part in it and those morals are completely to your credit, but that would inarguably have harmed us on the pitch surely, so winning isn’t everything? I am not meaning to compare having academy players on the pitch to having drink drivers on the pitch but surely that example shows that winning isn’t truly everything - having an identity, being able to relate to the players, having a manager who conducts himself excellently surely all come into play and I feel are all currently being promoted as ethos’ (ethi?) of the club. So for me, I always want to see us win and be ambitious. But I also want to be able to relate to a team - I think we’re getting there and so at this point, to me, winning isn’t everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alty_Ram Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 10 hours ago, Andicis said: This is where the difference in opinion lies. No, winning isn't everything. But I don't see the development that you do here. I think this is where I am currently. We are seriously stretched as a squad so we perhaps at the moment we just have to look for some positives but there was precious little to take from recent performances. If we give Norwich a decent game but unfortunately go down by the odd goal then that'd perhaps give us something to hang onto but at the moment I don't see much on that pitch so far to get too positive about. That may change obviously as we get players back or new ones in so it is perfectly possible that our form may turn around at some point but I just don't see the team so soundly beaten by Blackburn suddenly looking competitive. Would be delighted to be proved wrong of course. As for the OP's original point. No, winning is not everything but at the moment I'd take your hand off for a grimly determined scrappy 3 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coneheadjohn Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 To us it isn’t because it means a lot more. But not winning and being crap or not giving 100% isn’t on. Exhibit A is Derby 0-3 Reading when Mac went,losing in that manner was a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab a dab doo Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Is winning every thing ? Well to flip the argument on its head, losing (and doing it both consistently and heavily) isn't all that that great if your an avid one club football fan. Plus it don't half spoil your weekends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 7 hours ago, nottingram said: Just to be clear, this isn’t me saying “go and support Man City then” because I really hate that line. But surely if winning was everything, nobody would support Derby, you would just choose to support the most successful teams. There must be other aspects that come into your thinking, presumably locality first and foremost. Of course, we all want Derby to win. No one goes into a Saturday thinking they want Norwich to do us in today actually, but different things resonate with different people. Ethics, morals etc. Not to bring up Joinersgate again but I remember you being vocal that you wanted the protagonists sacked for their part in it and those morals are completely to your credit, but that would inarguably have harmed us on the pitch surely, so winning isn’t everything? I am not meaning to compare having academy players on the pitch to having drink drivers on the pitch but surely that example shows that winning isn’t truly everything - having an identity, being able to relate to the players, having a manager who conducts himself excellently surely all come into play and I feel are all currently being promoted as ethos’ (ethi?) of the club. So for me, I always want to see us win and be ambitious. But I also want to be able to relate to a team - I think we’re getting there and so at this point, to me, winning isn’t everything. I support Derby because I was born here, it’s about as simple as that to be fair. I should probably make it clear that I’m not having a go at people who think there is MORE to football than winning, which is maybe more what the thread is about. Of course there is, playing good football and having technically brilliant players who are worth paying to see also form a part of the game. I’m more saying that I don’t understand the attitude where some fans sort of accept poor results because they think we’re doing things the “right way”. There’s certainly more to football than results, but they still have to come above all else imo. Sometimes it feels like there’s no fight to win within certain sectors of the fan base at times. I’m pissed off if we lose any game, league, cup or whatever else - and I’m elated when we win every game. I guess some fans just don’t have the same level of emotion, that’s more what I’m getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 7 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said: But this is the reality of where we are. Mel said the club could not sustain the level of losses it has in the past. The result of that is the necessity to drastically lower the wage bill and sell some of our talent to purchase others that we need to pay a fee for. To achieve this and expect promotion is ridiculous. We all want promotion but to expect promotion is in my opinion just downright unrealistic. Cocu has done his level best to integrate the best of our young talent but as said elsewhere currently they are struggling and the guys we would prefer to rely more on are either injured or unfit. The result of this is where we are. I get all that, I really do. And I’m not saying I expect promotion this season, far from it - I just expect progress at this point in Cocu’s tenure, given he was tasked with a long term plan. It just seems to me that some fans don’t even want promotion - they’re just happy to see young lads playing for us, no matter what the result. That’s what gets me. It’s a very different mentality to me, and one I can’t get on board with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 41 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: I get all that, I really do. And I’m not saying I expect promotion this season, far from it - I just expect progress at this point in Cocu’s tenure, given he was tasked with a long term plan. It just seems to me that some fans don’t even want promotion - they’re just happy to see young lads playing for us, no matter what the result. That’s what gets me. It’s a very different mentality to me, and one I can’t get on board with. I really just care about avoiding relegation this season that’s all. Obviously I’d like better. But I’m willing to be very patient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, Curtains said: I really just care about avoiding relegation this season that’s all. Obviously I’d like better. But I’m willing to be very patient We finished 10th last season. I’m willing to be patient, but we shouldn’t be regressing. Top half absolute minimum for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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