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This isn't all on Cocu


MackworthRamIsGod

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27 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

It's like people honestly believe Cocu has instructed them to build slowly, lack intensity and then make howlers at the back...

It's not the first, or third or fifth/etc time that's been said though is it? Cocu seems to continue to ask his players to execute a game plan they can't do.

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15 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

To be fair,look at Stoke and their recent transformation under O Neill.

Essentially the same squad but now being played to their strengths in a system they can understand and get behind.

Or our 2014 team transformation from being managed by Clough to McLaren.

The manager makes the difference,if they didn't we would just have 11 players running around in a state of chaos and confusion,each doing whatever they wanted.

Errrr,hang on......

It's the way of life in all industries managers make decisions and of you call it wrong then your in trouble.

Every match different team he doesn't know what's his best team or tactics are .

It's Cocu style to play negative football yes 2 trophys in Holland but the PSV fans say it's dire to watch and glad when he went.

Ive supported the Rams all my life season ticket holder over 45 years so ive seen some crap in my time but not seen a team play so negative boring football since Cocu came .

Let's not forget the shambles and disgrace  when we played the Red Dogs !!.

Get rid Mel because if fans had been in attendance this season and finish of last then they would have expressed their opinions. 

Forest will be looking soon as well get Paul Cook a traditional manager before they do.

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I find it totally weird this constant pushing back of an appraisal of Cocu's tenure until all of the stars and the moon's are aligned in the constellation of Capricorn or some other improbable outcome.

Let's wait until the injured players have returned let's wait until the new signings have bedded in let's wait until ad infinitum. The guys been here for over a year now which is MORE than sufficient time to make an informed judgement on anyones performance. 

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5 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Phil has his faults, tactics seem poor, team selection is starting to look bizarre and substitutions are starting to look like something out of the Nigel Clough handbook, however...

The poor bloke can't cut a break. If our current squad was a formula 1 car, it would be a McLaren trying to win a Grand Prix filled with leaded 4 star with 1 missing wheel replaced with a spare off a Ford Cortina.

If we move from front to back.

Striker - First off we are missing the main ingredient, a striker, the focal point. CM left and replacing him should have been top priority, we have played 5 games now and still havent addressed this glaringly obvious issue. Phil's tactics (or anyones for that matter) wouldnt work without a striker. Marriott is still building his fitness and will get there, if he is allowed to play more than 45 minutes that is.

Wingers/number 10 - Jozwiak looks a good signing, he cant finish for toffee but he looks a good player, Ibe we know will be a good player but it will be Christmas by the time he is firing on all cylinders. Sibley isnt the same player at the minute but I believe that is down to the striker/lack of wingers issue. The 1 player we are missing who has been key to the way we play for a long time is Lawrence. His direct way of playing is exactly what we need and that was evident with Jozwiak yesterday, the only player who could turn and run at them and it caused problems. Imagine this with Jozwiak, Ibe and Lawrence.

Midfield - I'm sorry but this is a problem area for me and has been since Hendrick/Hughes/Bryson were broken up. Bird will be great, but is still young and learning. Rooney is winding down and ready to go and live out his days at the donkey sanctuary for retired footballers, Bielik could be a key player when he returns from injury. Apart from these we have Shinnie, Holmes who both get honourable mentions and could be good, but Shinnie clearly isnt a Cocu type player and Holmes needs a sustained period without injury. I honestly think we need 1, maybe 2 midfielders, budget aside, a fit Van Ginkel would be great, a young Barry Bannan type too.

Defense/goalkeeper - hilariously and worryingly this is our most complete section of the team. Marshall a good keeper, Byrne definitely will be a good player, Wisdom and Clarke are both good (if allowed to play), but Dutch Mike at the minute looks a worry, hopefully he will settle. But, our left back spot desperately needs addressing. Listening to Phil saying things will change with the addition of "1 or 2 players", I have confidence left back will be a priority.

I think what my ramble is trying to say is, Cocus tactics are never going to work without all the pieces at his disposal. It is worrying that Cocu seems to have 1 style of play and similar to Mac and Clem, he has no plan B and cant select a system to suit his players, but, we need to see how we look once Cocu has the players at his disposal.

I think a little bit of patience is needed, the next few weeks are going to be very rough indeed, we either sack Cocu for big money get someone else in and start all over again, or stick with Phil's vision and hope to God he gets it right.

This week is massive, for all the positivity surrounding our transfer activity this window, he recruitment team need to pull it out the bag and get us the striker and left back we desperately need.

In Cocu I trust....just

Exactly this, MRiG 

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5 hours ago, minesahartington said:

It tells me it not in his DNA yoof.

Like our stirring poem says Derby is a hardworking industrious successful committed passionate city. That’s how we expect our teams to try to be at least. 

We now play like an Oxfordshire village team whose DNA consists of getting to the last 16 in a local Morris Dancing competition. 

Do not knock Morris Dancing if you have not tried it. I assure you that I have not tried it. Pull the other leg it has bells on it. Morris is not dancing today.

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1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

Something that occurred to me yesterday is that Cocu hasn't been able to field his strongest side yet thanks to embargo and injuries. That'd probably look something like this:

                         New ST

          Ibe        Lawrence    Jozwiak

                  Bird              Bielik

   New LB   Clarke    Te Wierik    Byrne

                        Marshall

 

We're another few weeks away from this becoming an option so in the meantime I'd try and add some more dynamism into the side, more of a traditional 433:

                      Marriott
   Whittaker                      Jozwiak

              Knight      Holmes
                      Shinnie

 Buchanan  Clarke  Wisdom    Byrne

                       Marshall

But can he drop Rooney??   

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3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I find it totally weird this constant pushing back of an appraisal of Cocu's tenure until all of the stars and the moon's are aligned in the constellation of Capricorn or some other improbable outcome.

Let's wait until the injured players have returned let's wait until the new signings have bedded in let's wait until ad infinitum. The guys been here for over a year now which is MORE than sufficient time to make an informed judgement on anyones performance. 

If Frank had of been dealt the hand that Cocu has, started so late in that first season, no money to spend, soft embargo, directive to play the kids, no Tomori, Mount or Wilson....I am not convinced he would be doing much better. Let’s see what happens when he has a fully fit squad and the signings are made and fit to play ?

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21 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

It's not the first, or third or fifth/etc time that's been said though is it? Cocu seems to continue to ask his players to execute a game plan they can't do.

The present plan will not get us promoted but maybe get us relegated. Dowell played well for Wigan. Johnson for Blackburn. Brizzie, say no more. We seem to play people out of position and they may lose heart if their particular skills and abilities are not fostered. Hoddle said that out of 70 games for England he was allowed to play in his best position FOUR times.

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2 hours ago, Ellafella said:

I would actually find it difficult to watch. I would still be going but under sufferance. You know @i-Ram I am the most enthusiastic Derby County fan you could ever meet. I can speak for hours about the Club, its history, matches over the 45 years that I’ve been watching like many of the great supporters on this forum, and I know in my water just how poor the football is right now and how unsuited Cocu is sadly for our Club. I wish I was wrong. 

Just teasing you buddy. I know your passion. Any mate of@Angry Ram Is ok by me. I have your back. COYR, and come on Philip. We need more than hair sweeping on the touchline.

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1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

I find it totally weird this constant pushing back of an appraisal of Cocu's tenure until all of the stars and the moon's are aligned in the constellation of Capricorn or some other improbable outcome.

Let's wait until the injured players have returned let's wait until the new signings have bedded in let's wait until ad infinitum. The guys been here for over a year now which is MORE than sufficient time to make an informed judgement on anyones performance. 

A year in which he has had one transfer window wiped out by a soft transfer embargo, his captain/best defender sacked for off-field conduct & his record signing out with cruciate ligaments. He's also had to remould a bloated, overpaid squad that was full of deadwood & integrate youth - both of which he's done very well.

I'm not defending yesterday - it was atrocious. But there's a danger of allowing short term fury to cloud long term objectives. To properly judge a manager's performance, you have to apply context & allow the short/mid term limiting factors to correct themselves (as they're outside of his control but will improve). If we're still clueless when all players are back/matchfit & we have the pivotal centre forward that surely will arrive soon, then any conclusion on Cocu would be fair.

End of November seems a reasonable time to do that - 3 games into a new season most certainly does not.

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Comments about Rowett - we lost 3-1 to an almost relegated Burton and lost 4-1 at home to an almost relegated Sunderland. Lampard lost 4-1 at home to Leeds and lost 4-0 to Villa. Results like this happen. The chances of the game being played and the same result happening are low, we had an obvious handball (given new rules) turned away, their first goal was offside, second goal was a great strike and their third goal was a huge deflection. 

Realistically, if Cocu goes, we won't get a new manager in externally, the likelihood is that it will be Rooney who takes over, who knows how good he'll be? Is that a risk fans want to take..? The cost to sack Cocu and his team will be huge, he has 3 years left on his contract. 

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17 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

A year in which he has had one transfer window wiped out by a soft transfer embargo, his captain/best defender sacked for off-field conduct & his record signing out with cruciate ligaments. He's also had to remould a bloated, overpaid squad that was full of deadwood & integrate youth - both of which he's done very well.

I'm not defending yesterday - it was atrocious. But there's a danger of allowing short term fury to cloud long term objectives. To properly judge a manager's performance, you have to apply context & allow the short/mid term limiting factors to correct themselves (as they're outside of his control but will improve). If we're still clueless when all players are back/matchfit & we have the pivotal centre forward that surely will arrive soon, then any conclusion on Cocu would be fair.

End of November seems a reasonable time to do that - 3 games into a new season most certainly does not.

Agree completely. If his signings turn out to be woeful, if the return of injured players makes no difference, and if the players who have done so poorly so far don't improve, then he has to go. But to be able to make those judgements will take until Christmas, and considering the circus he had to deal with last season, I think he deserves that time.

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We need a proper centre forward 

the defence selected on Saturday was just wrong - Wisdom on the wrong side and I don’t think he wins enough headers at centre half anyway, Dutch mike is currently a rabbit in the headlights and Buchanan attacks ok but defends poorly - Clarke and Davies are actually our best centre half’s still 

midfield - I don’t like 2 defensive midfielders starting as it says we are looking to defend ( and badly) you have to win tackles and the only ones who seem to do that are Shinnie and knight - the balance is just wrong 

I am happy enough to let Cocu carry on but the players need a serious kick up the backside but we are carrying some currently predominantly Bird Rooney and possibly sibley ( because we are pushing him so far forward he is easy to mark out of the game) also we are tiny as a team and fairly weak in terms of being pushed of the ball 

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52 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

A year in which he has had one transfer window wiped out by a soft transfer embargo, his captain/best defender sacked for off-field conduct & his record signing out with cruciate ligaments. He's also had to remould a bloated, overpaid squad that was full of deadwood & integrate youth - both of which he's done very well.

I'm not defending yesterday - it was atrocious. But there's a danger of allowing short term fury to cloud long term objectives. To properly judge a manager's performance, you have to apply context & allow the short/mid term limiting factors to correct themselves (as they're outside of his control but will improve). If we're still clueless when all players are back/matchfit & we have the pivotal centre forward that surely will arrive soon, then any conclusion on Cocu would be fair.

End of November seems a reasonable time to do that - 3 games into a new season most certainly does not.

Best post I have read in a long time ?

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2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

It's not the first, or third or fifth/etc time that's been said though is it? Cocu seems to continue to ask his players to execute a game plan they can't do.

Which ties back into my initial point, he's bringing in the players that can execute the gameplan, a bit of patience until they are up to speed is all that may be needed

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

I find it totally weird this constant pushing back of an appraisal of Cocu's tenure until all of the stars and the moon's are aligned in the constellation of Capricorn or some other improbable outcome.

Let's wait until the injured players have returned let's wait until the new signings have bedded in let's wait until ad infinitum. The guys been here for over a year now which is MORE than sufficient time to make an informed judgement on anyones performance. 

Hyperbole doesn't change the fact that our top 2 goalscorers are injured and our new signings need to gel... Waiting until he can field an XI with correct players for each position isn't exactly unreasonable, no matter how much you exaggerate

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I would give Cocu at least until Christmas. He will deliver but it will take time. We have virtually half a team to come back (including signing the striker Cocu states will be here before the Norwich game). Once we get a win under our belts watch the confidence come back. Rooney needs time on the bench.  Get Holmes back along with Shinnie in midfield.Bring Clarke (our best player so far) back and play Wisdom alongside. Norwich isn't a must win game but we cannot lose. The Red dogs game is going to be the most important game of the season for both managers. Whoever loses will most probably lose their job! 

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