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4-3-3 Getting there


IslandExile
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Cocu has always said that his preferred system is 4-3-3. In the recent poll, I think that came out on top. I voted for it myself for the reason given by another poster: that's the system used when we've had the most success.

I think we're starting to get away from the pair of deep lying midfielders in a 4231.

I was one of those that advocated playing Rooney up front but it didn't work; we need more mobility. We played much better in the second half against Luton when he dropped back into the deep lying quarter back role. It was noticeable that he went further back and it was Bird who pushed forwards.

I really rate Bird but, as yet, he doesn't have the vision to ping a long defence splitting pass like Rooney.

So, with 2-3 new additions, we could set up like this:

              Marshall/Roos

Byrne.  Wisdom*     Clarke.     NEW*

                    Rooney/Bielik

Knight/Holmes.                   Bird

 Second-Striker*.    NEW*.    Jozwiak

* Wisdom or Te Wierik

* Second-striker or No.10: one from Marriott, Sibley or Lawrence depending how we wanted to setup and who was available/in form. Maybe Ibe or some other second winger instead of a striker/No 10.

* NEW centre forward but covered, for now by Waghorn, when fit, and Hector-Ingram. Maybe Whittaker.

* NEW left back but Fozzy or Buchanan for now.

It will take time but we are getting there. COYR 🐏

Edited by IslandExile
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21 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Cocu has always said that his preferred system is 4-3-3. In the recent poll, I think that came out on top. I voted for it myself for the reason given by another poster: that's the system used when we've had the most success.

I think we're starting to get away from the pair of deep lying midfielders in a 4231.

I was one of those that advocated playing Rooney up front but it didn't work; we need more mobility. We played much better in the second half against Luton when he dropped back into the deep lying quarter back role. It was noticeable that he went further back and it was Bird who pushed forwards.

I really rate Bird but, as yet, he doesn't have the vision to ping a long defence splitting pass like Rooney.

So, with 2-3 new additions, we could set up like this:

              Marshall/Roos

Byrne.  Wisdom*     Clarke.     NEW*

                    Rooney/Bielik

Knight/Holmes.                   Bird

 Second-Striker*.    NEW*.    Jozwiak

* Wisdom or Te Wierik

* Second-striker or No.10: one from Marriott, Sibley or Lawrence depending how we wanted to setup and who was available/in form. Maybe Ibe or some other second winger instead of a striker/No 10.

* NEW centre forward but covered, for now by Waghorn, when fit, and Hector-Ingram. Maybe Whittaker.

* NEW left back but Fozzy or Buchanan for now.

It will take time but we are getting there. COYR 🐏

Our biggest single issue is not having a suitable hold up/target man striker who can be the focus of the team up top and redistribute the ball in the top third of the pitch.

We made a huge mistake,especially in hindsight in not holding onto Martin and more importantly not replacing him.....all compounded by waghorn being injured as he’s the only striker we have who is capable of doing some of the hold up work.

Cocu knows all of this which is why I’m confident he’s going to address this fundamental problem...I’m sure he has a plan,we just don’t know what it is yet.

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16 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Our biggest single issue is not having a suitable hold up/target man striker who can be the focus of the team up top and redistribute the ball in the top third of the pitch.

We made a huge mistake,especially in hindsight in not holding onto Martin and more importantly not replacing him.....all compounded by waghorn being injured as he’s the only striker we have who is capable of doing some of the hold up work.

Cocu knows all of this which is why I’m confident he’s going to address this fundamental problem...I’m sure he has a plan,we just don’t know what it is yet.

I think Martin would've been ideal.

However, there may be reasons that we're not aware about - contract related or otherwise - that meant he wanted to leave. We'll never know.

It's a shame but we have no choice now, we must move on.

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19 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I think Martin would've been ideal.

However, there may be reasons that we're not aware about - contract related or otherwise - that meant he wanted to leave. We'll never know.

It's a shame but we have no choice now, we must move on.

Absolutely we do,hopefully to that new striker as soon as possible.

And if not,to a rejuvenated Waghorn doing the stuff for us again.

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I’m still not convinced 4-3-3 is Cocu’s “preferred formation”. He’s had plenty of time to play it, and he hasn’t really given it much of a go. The two defensive mids in a 4231 are more suited to his “defence first” type of play. Pretty sure I’ve seen someone put stats up on here showing he’s generally played that formation in the past as well.

That said, I much prefer a 4-3-3 when we’re playing the possession based style of play like we are currently. The. 4-2-3-1 leaves too much of a gap between the defensive and attacking units, making it very difficult to transition from defence to attack. Makes it very easy to press us back and put us in trouble playing out the back too, as we don’t really have a proper midfield outlet. I’d personally like to see something like this:

Marshall

Byrne Te Weirik Clarke Buchanan

Bielik

Rooney Sibley

Ibe ST Jozwiak

You’ve got plenty of rotation options there too. Bird can come in for Bielik, Knight for Sibley, Lawrence for Jozwiak, Waghorn anywhere across the front 3 etc etc. Think setting up like that would make us much more free flowing.

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Theres really not alot between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3.

Theres also no written rule that 4-2-3-1 is a defensive formation, plenty of teams have scored alot of goals playing it.

Maybe we need to play about with who the 2 are, I think it makes sense to setup with Shinnie+Bird away from home but perhaps Rooney+Bird at home.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, when fit, Bielik+Bird could be an excellent pairing.

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                                       Marshall / Roos

Byrn/Wisdom         MTW/Wisdom      Clarke/Evans             Buchanan/Shinnie

                                            Bielik/Evans

                              Bird*/Sibley*        Rooney*/Holmes*

KJ/Knight*                           Waghorn/Marriott                    Lawrence/Ibe

*could be moved elseware quite easily

Only Ibe has yet to be signed, although granted there's a few still crocked in that team.

I'd trust Rooney to find his own space in the midfield but I wouldn't have him as a single CDM (he laways played there next to someone previously).

We don't need masses of new signings but do need to start playing a bit quicker and better. I think we mostly agree none of the players have been at their best since we started the new season as well as the team performance overall being poor.

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2 hours ago, IslandExile said:

Cocu has always said that his preferred system is 4-3-3. In the recent poll, I think that came out on top. I voted for it myself for the reason given by another poster: that's the system used when we've had the most success.

I think we're starting to get away from the pair of deep lying midfielders in a 4231.

I was one of those that advocated playing Rooney up front but it didn't work; we need more mobility. We played much better in the second half against Luton when he dropped back into the deep lying quarter back role. It was noticeable that he went further back and it was Bird who pushed forwards.

I really rate Bird but, as yet, he doesn't have the vision to ping a long defence splitting pass like Rooney.

So, with 2-3 new additions, we could set up like this:

              Marshall/Roos

Byrne.  Wisdom*     Clarke.     NEW*

                    Rooney/Bielik

Knight/Holmes.                   Bird

 Second-Striker*.    NEW*.    Jozwiak

* Wisdom or Te Wierik

* Second-striker or No.10: one from Marriott, Sibley or Lawrence depending how we wanted to setup and who was available/in form. Maybe Ibe or some other second winger instead of a striker/No 10.

* NEW centre forward but covered, for now by Waghorn, when fit, and Hector-Ingram. Maybe Whittaker.

* NEW left back but Fozzy or Buchanan for now.

It will take time but we are getting there. COYR 🐏

I think a lot depends on the personnel available though. 4-3-3 works well with a strong & intelligent CF and 2 quick or tricky wingers. Going back to 13/14, we had Martin & a battalion of wingers (Ward, Russell, Ibe, Dawkins) so it suited us very well. Now we lack that CF & both our star wingers are injured.

Like you, I thought Rooney would be able to play up top (well, number 10) but the side struggled to get meaningful possession into him & his lack of mobility means accuracy into him is crucial. Not sure if it could work but reality is we looked much better with him deeper. I also dont think he enjoys playing there.

CF purchase is the missing link here & is vital to either formation. Hopefully we're able to strike on this soon & money has been prioritised for this rather than Ibe as thats our biggest need. Also dont believe LB is a vital purchase, Forsyth struggled yesterday but Connick is a good player & we have cover with Buchanan & Shinnie. 

Interesting thoughts on Bird by the way. He looked good with Rooney behind him & his ball to start the move for our goal showed he can cut defences open. His ability to intercept play also would be valuable higher up the pitch.

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