Max Bird

[Wolfie20]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Bird is fine in his current position, but I feel like the way we set up - a defensive double pivot without any pace or a ball carrier - and the way he is being coached is drumming into him that it’s all about recycling possession and never about advancing the play.

He needs to watch tapes of Kalvin Phillips from recent years or George Thorne from 2014, so he can become more complete and learn how to do the job on his own.

In theory, if you put Shinnie, Rooney or Bielik next to him, it sounds pretty solid, right? But in fact it just stifles us and leads to the ball never progressing up the field or there being no link between the defence and the front four.

Both Bird and Sibley will continue to look wasted in this system.

You know the way he's being coached? How?

The lad has had a couple of indifferent games in a side which has shown very little in the way of positive forward runs, giving him fewer options to play that searching through pass. It's no coincidence that Waghorn and more importantly Lawrence are out - these are the 2 who make the runs and at the same time create space which enables Sibley to become much more effective in a slightly deeper role than has been the case for the last few matches.

[S8TY]

3 hours ago, Richard246 said:

Just a thought about Max with all his attributes I would like to see him play in the centre of defence ???

 

This is a joke right? why would you do that ? Mark Wright? Jeeeez he's nothing like him 

[S8TY]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Bird is fine in his current position, but I feel like the way we set up - a defensive double pivot without any pace or a ball carrier - and the way he is being coached is drumming into him that it’s all about recycling possession and never about advancing the play.

He needs to watch tapes of Kalvin Phillips from recent years or George Thorne from 2014, so he can become more complete and learn how to do the job on his own.

In theory, if you put Shinnie, Rooney or Bielik next to him, it sounds pretty solid, right? But in fact it just stifles us and leads to the ball never progressing up the field or there being no link between the defence and the front four.

Both Bird and Sibley will continue to look wasted in this system.

Its being drummed into him is it ?? how do you know this ?

Never about advancing the play ?? really??

Learn how to do it on his own .??..I'm sure he's learning and will be able to do that 

Bielik will help him not stifle him.......................

watch tapes of Kalvin Phillips ??...........wow...

Max Bird is a young player who has the potential to be better than both of the players you mention but he's a young lad and will have steps forward and some back whilst he's learning, his progression has been amazing thus far so maybe just leave it to the coaches maybe yes as he seems to be doing rather well and is a quick learner by all accounts.....................

 

[S8TY]

3 hours ago, tinman said:

As it’s obviously silly season on here, Why not play him up front?

or in goal maybe 

[RiddingsRam]

3 hours ago, Richard246 said:

Just a thought about Max with all his attributes I would like to see him play in the centre of defence ???

 

Keep your thoughts to yourself in future ?

[Jourdan]

17 minutes ago, S8TY said:

Its being drummed into him is it ?? how do you know this ?

Never about advancing the play ?? really??

Learn how to do it on his own .??..I'm sure he's learning and will be able to do that 

Bielik will help him not stifle him.......................

watch tapes of Kalvin Phillips ??...........wow...

Max Bird is a young player who has the potential to be better than both of the players you mention but he's a young lad and will have steps forward and some back whilst he's learning, his progression has been amazing thus far so maybe just leave it to the coaches maybe yes as he seems to be doing rather well and is a quick learner by all accounts.....................

 

I work for Leeds United in my spare time, obviously.

I watch games. I look at the way we play. If it’s not a reflection of the coaching, then what is it supposed to be?

If we want to play better, faster, more exciting football, then we need our midfielders further up the pitch closer to the forwards playing in the opposition’s half.

Moving forward, I think Bird and Bielik will be competing for the same position, not playing alongside each other. Mainly because Bielik is coming back from a serious injury and we just don’t know how he’ll look.

I never said Bird didn’t have excellent potential. He obviously does. But if we are going to see his game evolve, our way of playing has to evolve too. Just my opinion.

[YorkshireRam]

4 hours ago, Richard246 said:

Just yes why not he is not pulling up any trees in Midfield.

Rooney disagrees. Bird and Wazza were critical to our good form after xmas so i'd argue 'pulling up trees' is exactly what he's been doing. Got a first team opportunity and grasped it with both hands and is now one of the first names on the teamsheet.

A slight lull in form while the team is badly out of form doesn't change this. 

[Richard246]

1 hour ago, RiddingsRam said:

Keep your thoughts to yourself in future ?

Why should I who the ???? are you.

[Richard246]

When Bielik is fit he will replace Bird simple as that.

They won’t be in the same 2 will be Bielik and Rooney 

Bielik driving forward Rooney looking for forward passes not going backwards.

Max will learn a lot from watching these 2

[Longeatonram2020]

Just now, Richard246 said:

When Bielik is fit he will replace Bird simple as that.

They won’t be in the same 2 will be Bielik and Rooney 

Bielik driving forward Rooney looking for forward passes not going backwards.

Max will learn a lot from watching these 2

I don’t think it is. The Bird/Rooney partnership was the main reason we flew up the league last season after Christmas. 

[Longeatonram2020]

1 hour ago, Richard246 said:

If we get IBE and play lawrence in the 10 role where does that leave Sibley and Bird .

Unless we are playing Sibley and Bird as the 2 holding players so no knight or Rooney out of he 4 knight is currently the best and is clearly a box to box player.

Perhaps play Knight and Bird as the holding players.

It will be Lawrence or Sibley both won’t play.

Will Cocu leave out Rooney no I don’t think so I think you will find he will play deep with Bird.And for me that’s the problem slow and pedestrian.

i think Knight has to play the deep role because of his  energy. Max Bird should be passing forward but he goes sideways and back pointless perhaps a spell on the sidelines.

 

 

I mean, could it be that we maybe rotate the squad? Everything you said was very much an absolute, fitness and form more than plays a role in the success of any side.

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

I work for Leeds United in my spare time, obviously.

I watch games. I look at the way we play. If it’s not a reflection of the coaching, then what is it supposed to be?

If we want to play better, faster, more exciting football, then we need our midfielders further up the pitch closer to the forwards playing in the opposition’s half.

Moving forward, I think Bird and Bielik will be competing for the same position, not playing alongside each other. Mainly because Bielik is coming back from a serious injury and we just don’t know how he’ll look.

I never said Bird didn’t have excellent potential. He obviously does. But if we are going to see his game evolve, our way of playing has to evolve too. Just my opinion.

so did we play ok when Rooney was sitting next to Bird in the purple patch we had before lockdown?

[Jourdan]

4 minutes ago, S8TY said:

so did we play ok when Rooney was sitting next to Bird in the purple patch we had before lockdown?

Our record before lockdown with Rooney and Bird together in the side was OK.

Played: 10

Won: 4 - Drew: 3 - Lost: 3

Points: 15 from 30

There were some fantastic performances - Stoke at home, Swansea away and Sheffield Wednesday away.

But the overall spell probably seemed better than it actually was, one because we had been so bad before January and two because we were playing bottom half sides by and large.

For me, I just feel we need to keep raising the bar and we won’t do that by continuing with Bird and Rooney as a double pivot.

Better teams will exploit it as our results in July proved.

[WNC Ram]

2 hours ago, Richard246 said:

If we get IBE and play lawrence in the 10 role where does that leave Sibley and Bird?

Playing on all of the weeks that Ibe is injured and Lawrence suspended. So pretty often.

[Premier ram]

5 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Bird is fine in his current position, but I feel like the way we set up - a defensive double pivot without any pace or a ball carrier - and the way he is being coached is drumming into him that it’s all about recycling possession and never about advancing the play.

He needs to watch tapes of Kalvin Phillips from recent years or George Thorne from 2014, so he can become more complete and learn how to do the job on his own.

In theory, if you put Shinnie, Rooney or Bielik next to him, it sounds pretty solid, right? But in fact it just stifles us and leads to the ball never progressing up the field or there being no link between the defence and the front four.

Both Bird and Sibley will continue to look wasted in this system.

Sibley looks a very frustrated player at the moment

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

I work for Leeds United in my spare time, obviously.

I watch games. I look at the way we play. If it’s not a reflection of the coaching, then what is it supposed to be?

If we want to play better, faster, more exciting football, then we need our midfielders further up the pitch closer to the forwards playing in the opposition’s half.

Moving forward, I think Bird and Bielik will be competing for the same position, not playing alongside each other. Mainly because Bielik is coming back from a serious injury and we just don’t know how he’ll look.

I never said Bird didn’t have excellent potential. He obviously does. But if we are going to see his game evolve, our way of playing has to evolve too. Just my opinion.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself Jourdan because its becoming tiresome but when i was in holland,italy and spain when with youth sides it was very obvious that one of the main differences in a young say 11-14 year old age group spanish or dutch lad was there ability to be able to keep the ball , especially in tight areas, trusting players in tight areas, being comfortable on the ball and being able to know when to reset which sometimes means going backwards to the keeper or just retaining possesion,this is because being comfortable on the ball and keeping possesion is something these nations focus on as well as technical ability and didn't have parents on the side shouting instructions like we used to have here in England and keeping the ball was one of the England national teams biggest flaws up until a few years ago when coaching methods changed but in Holland and Spain especially the kids really seem to excel in basic possesion play.

Possesion based football can look extremely painful in its infancy as it can mean keeping the ball for the sake of keeping the ball sometimes usually due to lack of movement or an opponent shuts the pathway or a bad sloppy  pass can make it look extremely dull but when it works and players switch it quickly and interchange in the midfield positions and give easy out options this leads to quicker faster attacks.

With this you need pacey players who we are trying to get i beleive and an end product and i beleive we are short in these areas but never the less i beleive that Bird is being told to retain possesion and that is still very important.

what is not happening is it is too slow and ponderous and players are playing too safe and a lot of players mainly the youngsters are not being brave enough to go into space and want the ball in tight areas or when they do they are losing it too easily or being out muscled but the physical part for the youngsters will come as some are slight and we are not switching it quick enough when we have created an overload and sometimes we are not even creating an overload which hopefully will come with better wide options and attacking options

When an out ball is not on we then go back to reset to keep the ball and look for openings etc and this can lead to what looks like ponderous keeping of the ball for no reason but there are plenty of reasons.

Cocu also mentioned parts of the game we were not good at on saturday and we will see what and where we go when new players in key areas arrive .

But...keeping the ball is still the bench mark for what i beleive Cocu is trying to achieve similar to when he was at Barcelona and in Holland.

I actually like what he is trying to implement and it will be helped greatly by a few additions and a bit of flair never hurts which Lawrence and hopefully Jozwiak will give us as well as a good strong centre forward.

 

you called it a myth that we wanted a strong hold it up type of CF but we will see if its a myth when Cocu signs someone as i'd be astonished if its a Vydra or Marriott type striker as we need a striker to hold the ball to bring others into play 

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

33 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Our record before lockdown with Rooney and Bird together in the side was OK.

Played: 10

Won: 4 - Drew: 3 - Lost: 3

Points: 15 from 30

There were some fantastic performances - Stoke at home, Swansea away and Sheffield Wednesday away.

But the overall spell probably seemed better than it actually was, one because we had been so bad before January and two because we were playing bottom half sides by and large.

For me, I just feel we need to keep raising the bar and we won’t do that by continuing with Bird and Rooney as a double pivot.

Better teams will exploit it as our results in July proved.

Rooney won't be here beyond the end of the season and it looks as though mentally he's checked out already. Suspect we'll be seeing the single pivot more and more often this year.

I think we have to take a bit more risk to try to generate some forward momentum.

[S8TY]

47 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Our record before lockdown with Rooney and Bird together in the side was OK.

Played: 10

Won: 4 - Drew: 3 - Lost: 3

Points: 15 from 30

There were some fantastic performances - Stoke at home, Swansea away and Sheffield Wednesday away.

But the overall spell probably seemed better than it actually was, one because we had been so bad before January and two because we were playing bottom half sides by and large.

For me, I just feel we need to keep raising the bar and we won’t do that by continuing with Bird and Rooney as a double pivot.

Better teams will exploit it as our results in July proved.

We are not the finished article mate....we are short of some main players as well and too many youngsters being relied on who will have natural dips in form and need to be taken out and to just watch is important this happened with rooney at Everton and lots of up and coming young players....give them a chance ffs....give the team and project a chance in fact!! it is a longer term project where the youngsters will get more oppurtunities...there will be ups and downs but i'm all for giving a coach a chance 

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, S8TY said:

...

As you’ve alluded to many times, the coaching and development of players was for a long time very different in England compared to countries like Spain and Netherlands, and in many ways it still is.

I understand that if you have worked as a youth coach, you will probably have more sympathy for Cocu, agree with his thinking more willingly and have more faith in his vision. But that doesn’t mean us regular football fans who feel differently are less knowledgeable, as you tend to suggest.

It’s not in anyone’s interests for Cocu to fail. There are numerous intelligent posters who make fair and balanced points on why that progression hasn’t happened and isn’t likely to happen. Then there are equally intelligent and insightful posters who believe Cocu is on the right track. At the end of the day, we all want Cocu to succeed and see signs of progression, so I am not sure why it has to feel like a constant battle to be right.

I’ve mentioned this before, but personally I’ve always thought that Cocu would be a more obvious fit for a club in Spain, where the football philosophies and the development systems have more crossover with Dutch football.

I could see him thriving with a medium-sized club in Spain because it would be easier to get his ideas to translate on the pitch and a more invigorating step for his career.

This job at Derby is a tough one for someone with only 15 months’ experience in English football and someone who is still coming to terms with Championship football and what it takes to get out of the division.

But let’s see what the next few months hold. Maybe Jozwiak and the other 2-3 signings that follow will give us the lift we need. I really hope this is the case.

We all want to see a winning team and an exciting team to watch, at the end of the day.

[S8TY]

14 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

As you’ve alluded to many times, the coaching and development of players was for a long time very different in England compared to countries like Spain and Netherlands, and in many ways it still is.

I understand that if you have worked as a youth coach, you will probably have more sympathy for Cocu, agree with his thinking more willingly and have more faith in his vision. But that doesn’t mean us regular football fans who feel differently are less knowledgeable, as you tend to suggest.

It’s not in anyone’s interests for Cocu to fail. There are numerous intelligent posters who make fair and balanced points on why that progression hasn’t happened and isn’t likely to happen. Then there are equally intelligent and insightful posters who believe Cocu is on the right track. At the end of the day, we all want Cocu to succeed and see signs of progression, so I am not sure why it has to feel like a constant battle to be right.

I’ve mentioned this before, but personally I’ve always thought that Cocu would be a more obvious fit for a club in Spain, where the football philosophies and the development systems have more crossover with Dutch football.

I could see him thriving with a medium-sized club in Spain because it would be easier to get his ideas to translate on the pitch and a more invigorating step for his career.

This job at Derby is a tough one for someone with only 15 months’ experience in English football and someone who is still coming to terms with Championship football and what it takes to get out of the division.

But let’s see what the next few months hold. Maybe Jozwiak and the other 2-3 signings that follow will give us the lift we need. I really hope this is the case.

We all want to see a winning team and an exciting team to watch, at the end of the day.

its not a battle to see who is right you keep expecting us to be the finished article when there is a lot of work going on from top to bottom and means lots of hours of work but we have only just started to give Cocu some players that he actually appears to want so needs to be cut some slack...you want it all now ...and would be happier with a spendthrift manager trying to buy success when Cocu has been brought in because of how he coaches youngsters and makes profit from those players generating money to buy players or missing parts of a team...Cocu like all managers is not flawless and will have his critics...some City fans moan about Pep so you're not alone...but you seem so impatient and see a lot of things that I dont personally see  ...like saying its drummed into Bird to not go forward etc when this is only your opinion but it is always an underhand dig at Cocu and his coaching because you don't beleive in what hes doing or don't rate him or whatever.but do you know how frustrating it is to coach people then see them ..I'm trying to give a bit of balance thats all because i see some of the negatives you perceive as positives if....if...we want to progres...was never going to happen overnight and as i said before if at the end of this season we are seen to not having progressed and have given Cocu the players he wants within reason of course then it can be re evaluated but at this moment he needs a bit of patience...he is our first ever foreign coach...give the bloke a chance and try not to jump on everything and think its easy what the club is trying to do...it isn't....and it takes time so take all the excuses away from Cocu and in time if it is not right he will have nowhere to go but blame himself or perhaps he is not right for us at this time but at the moment I'm right behind him and Mel giving the kids a chance and seeing if we can build a sustainable model and solid foundations to enable us to compete if we were to ever get to the prem