Primary role for the academy

[IslandExile]

Time for a poll. We've not had one for a while and I feel they help to initiate meaningful discussion - even if the survey itself is not that informative.

That's especially the case this time because I do not think the two possible answers are mutually exclusive. Nevertheless, I've thought about this a lot over the past few days, in particular with regard to the notion of selling Bogle.

I understand that our club, like many, many others, especially below the Premier League, is not in a good place financially. All clubs have to sell players to make ends meet. Or, as has been mooted, to wheel and deal. Bogle, being highly saleable, could be sold off to potentially fund the acquisition of a much needed pacey winger.

Some would argue that he's the best of the youngsters to sell because we have cover in his position.

Fair enough, I understand that argument. But I lived through the glories of the 70s and I don't like idea of Derby being a "selling club".

I think we should keep our best talent - build a team around the Bogles, Birds and Sibleys.

Sure we need to raise money, all clubs do, but let's sell the nearly men, those that won't quite make it. Let's bring in loans to fill the gaps where we cannot yet afford to splash out £15m on Harry Wilson - or shop abroad or vulture-like over the Wigan's of this Covid world.

Mel deserves great credit for his vision and funding of the academy; Wassall and his staff for their labour and Cocu for providing the pathway for the graduates.

I would like the primary goal of the academy to be providing members of our first team and not to merely provide the club with a source of income.

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

This is a business when all is said and done, has to be option 2. Invest a little for mucho grande return

[IslandExile]

3 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

This is a business when all is said and done, has to be option 2. Invest a little for mucho grande return

Maybe it's because I long for the days when football clubs were football clubs not businesses.

[Ambitious]

Both options apply. We are ultimately lower on a food chain than other clubs so as soon as they fancy trying their hand then it's only a matter of time. 

I'm convinced we have this year with Sibley and that's it. He's far too good not to get snapped up quickly. 

[Black ('n' White) Sheep]

I went for option 1... but accept that every player has their price. If Sibley is consistent across the whole of next season, I'm under no illusion that he'll be prised away by one of the big teams for big money.

[IslandExile]

3 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

Both options apply. We are ultimately lower on a food chain than other clubs so as soon as they fancy trying their hand then it's only a matter of time. 

I'm convinced we have this year with Sibley and that's it. He's far too good not to get snapped up quickly. 

Come on @Ambitious show more ambition.

Apologies, I'm sure that's been used before but in this case, it applies... The club should be setting out that we are building a footballing dynasty.

[David]

It’s pretty simple really.

The primary purpose of the academy is to produce players for the first team.

That’s it.

Now if those players see offers come in that allow the club to strengthen in multiple areas then we sell.

This doesn’t just apply to Derby but all clubs outside the Premier League and neither poll option really fits this. 

[IslandExile]

8 minutes ago, David said:

It’s pretty simple really.

The primary purpose of the academy is to produce players for the first team.

That’s it.

Now if those players see offers come in that allow the club to strengthen in multiple areas then we sell.

This doesn’t just apply to Derby but all clubs outside the Premier League and neither poll option really fits this. 

You contradict yourself. You said the primary purpose was to produce players for the first team - that was one of the options.

I emphasized "primary" in the poll and my original post because I appreciate some players will have to be sold and others will be pulled away by the lure of "bigger" clubs.

I sadly agree with the two earlier posts that we will likely lose Sibley next season, especially if we don't get promoted.

However, I do think we should aim to keep our better academy players. Some clubs seem to have a business model whereby they produce players just in order to sell them on (looking at you Peterborough).

[Ambitious]

22 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Come on @Ambitious show more ambition.

Apologies, I'm sure that's been used before but in this case, it applies... The club should be setting out that we are building a footballing dynasty.

I'm sure the higher we go up the food chain the better chance we have, ultimately if they are that good then it will happen naturally. I like the fact we've become a high end option for talented kids which helps the chances of getting players come through is significantly better than hoping someone from Chad pops out the next Messi. 

[David]

7 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

You contradict yourself. You said the primary purpose was to produce players for the first team - that was one of the options.

I emphasized "primary" in the poll and my original post because I appreciate some players will have to be sold and others will be pulled away by the lure of "bigger" clubs.

I sadly agree with the two earlier posts that we will likely lose Sibley next season, especially if we don't get promoted.

However, I do think we should aim to keep our better academy players. Some clubs seem to have a business model whereby they produce players just in order to sell them on (looking at you Peterborough).

Not sure how it contradicts, as @Ambitioussaid we know where we are in the food chain, footballers are ambitious, they want to play at the highest level, we’re also like many other clubs not in the financial position to turn down large bids.

If for example Fulham were to bid £15m for Bogle, we can’t really afford to turn those offers down.

We’re not purely bringing players through to flog them, but if big money offers come in then we would be foolish to say no

[Ambitious]

8 minutes ago, David said:

Not sure how it contradicts, as @Ambitioussaid we know where we are in the food chain, footballers are ambitious, they want to play at the highest level, we’re also like many other clubs not in the financial position to turn down large bids.

If for example Fulham were to bid £15m for Bogle, we can’t really afford to turn those offers down.

We’re not purely bringing players through to flog them, but if big money offers come in then we would be foolish to say no

Ultimately, there is nothing better than seeing an academy come through and become a regular for the first team. Also, there is nothing worse than seeing the same player move and play for another club. 

[IslandExile]

6 minutes ago, David said:

Not sure how it contradicts, as @Ambitioussaid we know where we are in the food chain, footballers are ambitious, they want to play at the highest level, we’re also like many other clubs not in the financial position to turn down large bids.

If for example Fulham were to bid £15m for Bogle, we can’t really afford to turn those offers down.

We’re not purely bringing players through to flog them, but if big money offers come in then we would be foolish to say no

Agreed but i, say again, the primary goal should be to produce for the first team not to sell on. I tried to draw a comparison with Peterborough, who I'm sure they would admit themselves, see their business model as being a selling club.

That's really the distinction I'm trying to make. Of course, even clubs at the top end of the Premier League sell players - that's part of football. I'm just saying we should not set out by using the academy, in the first instance, as a source of income.

[David]

Just now, Ambitious said:

Ultimately, there is nothing better than seeing an academy come through and become a regular for the first team. Also, there is nothing worse than seeing the same player move and play for another club. 

Agreed.

Unfortunately as you know we’re not in the position where Brighton are for example where we can just turn down £25m bids for players.

Premier League, different story.

[David]

1 minute ago, IslandExile said:

Agreed but i, say again, the primary goal should be to produce for the first team not to sell on. I tried to draw a comparison with Peterborough, who I'm sure they would admit themselves, see their business model as being a selling club.

That's really the distinction in trying to make. Of course, even clubs at the top end of the Premier League sell players - that's part of football. I'm just saying we should not set out by using the academy, in the first instance, as a source of income.

Peterborough really are no different to us, they are doing the same and if any Championship club comes in with a large offer they can’t say no.

It’s a food chain, we are where we are let’s not kid ourselves.

If Chelsea for example offered £20m for Sibley this summer he would be gone

[IslandExile]

7 minutes ago, David said:

Peterborough really are no different to us

You see, that's where I disagree. I believe there are clubs like Peterborough, I'm sure there are others, that intentionally set out to develop players that they can sell.

Nothing wrong with that approach. It's absolutely necessary for clubs in this Premier League dominated world. My point is that I hope Derby are not seeing our academy as first and foremost a money generating mechanism (money saving yes - because we don't have to buy).

There's a third business model - Brentford's - no academy - just wheel and deal and try and work your way upwards.

[David]

12 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

You see, that's where I disagree. I believe there are clubs like Peterborough, I'm sure there are others, that intentionally set out to develop players that they can sell.

Nothing wrong with that approach. It's absolutely necessary for clubs in this Premier League dominated world. My point is that I hope Derby are not seeing our academy as first and foremost a money generating mechanism (money saving yes - because we don't have to buy).

There's a third business model - Brentford's - no academy - just wheel and deal and try and work your way upwards.

Could you explain how Peterborough do that so I can understand where you are coming from?

[Millenniumram]

The top option without a shadow of a doubt. I’d hate to think of us as a selling club, who’s sole purpose is to produce decent footballers for the big boys in the Prem to enjoy down the line whilst we end up with a load of journeymen. If you run a football club like that, while it might make sense financially, in a football sense it’s basically giving up. It would be horrible to be a fan of a football club that’s just happy where it is, helping produce players for the top level whilst never getting the chance to play there themselves. We must always set our ambitions higher than that, we must always strive to reach the very top ourselves. 

To that end, the primary purpose of the academy has to be to produce footballers of the highest possible standard - so that they can either play for us if they prove themselves capable, or be sold for decent money to a team further down the football pyramid, at a level to suit their abilities. Unless we’re in desperate need of cash, we shouldn’t ever be actively looking to sell our best young talents to teams above us imo. And even then we should be selective about who we sell. Ideally we should only sell players who’ve reached their absolute maximum value playing for us at the level we’re currently at - I’d class Bogle in this category, so I could understand selling him if we really needed the money. On the other hand, the likes of Bird and Sibley have only just broken through, so their value will be nowhere near the level it could be if they impressed over a larger number of appearances for us. Therefore, if at all possible, we should avoid selling those two right now, even from a purely business perspective.

There’s the obvious caveat here of course, in that sometimes players will want to leave. I’m sure we all understand that we’re not currently at the top of the footballing pyramid, so when players get offers from teams above us, you can understand them wanting to make the step up. There’s not a lot you can do about that. That sort of thing happens to football teams at every level of the football pyramid other than the very elite clubs at the top - from teams in League One/Two, to teams in the championship, to teams in the lower Prem, right the way up to the likes of Arsenal and Spurs who can’t quite break into the elite. And we benefit from nicking players off lower level teams ourselves of course - like we did taking Marriott and Holmes from League One. But it’s only when players explicitly want to leave that we should be selling them to the big boys imo, otherwise we should keep a hold of them and see if they can take us to that level ourselves!

[IslandExile]

12 minutes ago, David said:

Could you explain how Peterborough do that so I can understand where you are coming from?

The impression, admittedly from their very public chairman, is that they push the players they are trying to sell onto the market.

It is what we used to call a "selling club".

That's different - in my view - from developing a team based around academy players who, simply because of how good they are, attract the interest of other clubs.

 

[IslandExile]

9 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

The top option without a shadow of a doubt. I’d hate to think of us as a selling club, who’s sole purpose is to produce decent footballers for the big boys in the Prem to enjoy down the line whilst we end up with a load of journeymen. If you run a football club like that, while it might make sense financially, in a football sense it’s basically giving up. It would be horrible to be a fan of a football club that’s just happy where it is, helping produce players for the top level whilst never getting the chance to play there themselves. We must always set our ambitions higher than that, we must always strive to reach the very top ourselves. 

To that end, the primary purpose of the academy has to be to produce footballers of the highest possible standard - so that they can either play for us if they prove themselves capable, or be sold for decent money to a team further down the football pyramid, at a level to suit their abilities. Unless we’re in desperate need of cash, we shouldn’t ever be actively looking to sell our best young talents to teams above us imo. And even then we should be selective about who we sell. Ideally we should only sell players who’ve reached their absolute maximum value playing for us at the level we’re currently at - I’d class Bogle in this category, so I could understand selling him if we really needed the money. On the other hand, the likes of Bird and Sibley have only just broken through, so their value will be nowhere near the level it could be if they impressed over a larger number of appearances for us. Therefore, if at all possible, we should avoid selling those two right now, even from a purely business perspective.

There’s the obvious caveat here of course, in that sometimes players will want to leave. I’m sure we all understand that we’re not currently at the top of the footballing pyramid, so when players get offers from teams above us, you can understand them wanting to make the step up. There’s not a lot you can do about that. That sort of thing happens to football teams at every level of the football pyramid other than the very elite clubs at the top - from teams in League One/Two, to teams in the championship, to teams in the lower Prem, right the way up to the likes of Arsenal and Spurs who can’t quite break into the elite. And we benefit from nicking players off lower level teams ourselves of course - like we did taking Marriott and Holmes from League One. But it’s only when players explicitly want to leave that we should be selling them to the big boys imo, otherwise we should keep a hold of them and see if they can take us to that level ourselves!

Brilliantly put, expressed far better than my mumbling attempts.

[IslandExile]

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