Ghost of Clough Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 I think you over estimate how clinical forwards for the top 6 sides are/were. These are the shots per goal for Waghorn and Marriott when starting at CF (according to Whoscored) over the past two seasons: Waghorn 18/19 - 4.3 19/20 - 7.2 Marriott 18/19 - 5.7 19/20 - 21.5 How do they compare with the most used forwards from this seasons top 6? Watkins - 4.9 Brewster - 5.3 Mitrovic - 5.8 Robson-Kanu - 6.3 Bamford - 8.8 Austin - 9.25 Glatzel - 12.8 Ahh... maybe "1-in-5 Waghorn" is actually quite good. 18/19 Waghorn better than any top 6 CF from this season, with 4 better this season. A fit Marriott (18/19) is only bettered by two from this season. Waghorn's a safe bet to stay fit for the entire season. Marriott, Bennett and Trialist offer enough cover, although I'd only really play Bennett up top when we're chasing a game and only when he's partnered with another CF. I expect goals to be spread throughout the team, rather than mainly the forward 3. I wouldn't be surprised if Waghorn, Marriott, Lawrence, Sibley, Rooney, Knight and a new RW score close to 10 each, with a couple scoring slightly more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rample Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 11 hours ago, Black ('n' White) Sheep said: Who would I like to replace him? Sam Lammers on a season long loan. What do I think will happen? Marriott and Hector-Ingram being rotated depending on the strengths/weaknesses of our opposition. I think being forced to play Marriott might be a blessing in disguise. Would like to see him given another shot rather than written off. I know he doesn't fit the system too well, but give a striker the ball in the box and systems don't matter that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 11 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: As things stand we have Waghorn, Marriott, Trialist and Bennett battling for 1 position. Can’t see us signing anyone unless one of those 4 leaves first. I am not sure Bennett is battling for the centre forward spot but more likely cover for Lawrence on the left and sometimes on right but he does provide a decent option as a substitute across the line. Trialist is the real unknown whilst Marriott struggles for fitness and waghorn tries hard but lacks that bit of class at centre forward. Martin could still sign up and provide a different option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 41 minutes ago, Sparkle said: I am not sure Bennett is battling for the centre forward spot but more likely cover for Lawrence on the left and sometimes on right but he does provide a decent option as a substitute across the line. Trialist is the real unknown whilst Marriott struggles for fitness and waghorn tries hard but lacks that bit of class at centre forward. Martin could still sign up and provide a different option. But as I've already pointed out, Waghorn was only bettered by 4 out of the top 6 CFs in terms of how clinical they were. His rate in 18/19 was better than all of them. He's a reliable option in terms of fitness and Cocu has also stated he works well with Sibley. Marriott had injury troubles last season, but the season before did quite well. He was a nuisance and despite not being the most clinical, his shooting caused all sorts of trouble for the opposition. He also seemed to work well with Sibley last night. Waghorn will be available most games. Marriott available for a reasonable percentage with Trialist chipping in with a few apps when he isn't. Bennett used only in an emergency or when chasing a game late on. We also have Rooney, Lawrence and Whittaker who all played there at some point last season (*even if it was just for a few mins). I know you want us to have 4 top end strikers fighting for a single position, but with our budget, the balance is just about right. The only issue is if we can't sign a right winger and we're forced to play Waghorn on the right - then we will need to sign a CF as it leaves us with just Marriott as a senior CF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OohMartWright Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 9 hours ago, sunnyhill60 said: but he's not, he's had 2 years and the problems have been more than fitness So you're suggesting that he had an operation on his groin to cure an attitude problem or some such issue???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 A fully fit Marriott is an oxymoron. If he was Mediterranean cruise ship would you go aboard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, Alpha said: A fully fit Marriott is an oxymoron. If he was Mediterranean cruise ship would you go aboard? Played in 43 games in the 18/19 season averaging 56 mins in each. Then tried to play through last season with an injury but still featured in 37 games. He's since had surgery and should be over the troubles he had last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McMinn Football Genius Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 I’m hoping JM proves his many doubters wrong this season. He’s as close to (Bobby Davison/ Dean Sturridge type of striker) as an off the shoulder striker in a Rams shirt that I’ve seen in many a year. Keep the faith, we’ve quality in the middle of the park, we just need David Marshall to sign as our new No1 and a decent right winger and we aren’t far away from a good side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Played in 43 games in the 18/19 season averaging 56 mins in each. Then tried to play through last season with an injury but still featured in 37 games. He's since had surgery and should be over the troubles he had last season. Problem is, he doesn't get consistent runs in the side through little niggles etc so those 43 appearances are broken. An average of under an hour per game is surely not good? How many are as sub because he's working his way back only to dissappear again I'm not slating him. He's just unreliable. Even if it's not his fault he's still unreliable. You can't build an attack around him. He may well be in for his best season yet but you'd wait for him to prove that rather than bank on it. I wouldn't anyway. He's a luxury we can afford but he's still a luxury. I like the look of him but I also liked my first car and that wasn't reliable either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 The answer is probably not what we expect. When Clough sold Commons, we never found a replacement for that position or the creativity, but by the time he was sacked we were overall a much better team. We can forget directly replacing his attributes. Most players of his vision and touch are playing at a much higher level and any player who has that with more physicality and pace would be worth tens of millions. We can also forget finding one player to replace his goals and assists. That doesn't mean that we will go backwards by the sum of what we have lost. There's a lot of chat about Martin suiting Cocu's style of play down to the ground, but I don't buy it. Cocu ball needs a front line pressing, and fair play to the Dutchman for being the first Derby manager to get Martin to do it, but watching Martin press the ball was like watching Johnny Vegas run through treacle. Martin's movement was also clever, but it wasn't fast. With our lack of pace on the wings, all the opposition needed to do was put two men on Martin and all of a sudden we had 1265% possession and couldn't create a single chance with it. Hector-Ingrham won't step up that quickly. Don't put pressure on him. Martin's "replacement" is likely to be a wider contribution from a number of players, including, hopefully, some pace out wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamUltraRam Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Based on the second half of last season, scoring goals wasn't a problem. I think since since Christmas, the only league game that we didn't score in was WBA away. It's keeping it out at the other end that we need to get right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, Alpha said: Problem is, he doesn't get consistent runs in the side through little niggles etc so those 43 appearances are broken. An average of under an hour per game is surely not good? How many are as sub because he's working his way back only to dissappear again I'm not slating him. He's just unreliable. Even if it's not his fault he's still unreliable. You can't build an attack around him. He may well be in for his best season yet but you'd wait for him to prove that rather than bank on it. I wouldn't anyway. He's a luxury we can afford but he's still a luxury. I like the look of him but I also liked my first car and that wasn't reliable either. Roughly speaking, Waghorn will be available for 40+ games, Marriott probably mid 30's, with a very low chance of both being out at the same time. It basically means Trialist/Bennett/other will not be expected to start any games at CF (form permitting), and will come off the bench 10-15 times between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy03 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Rample said: think being forced to play Marriott might be a blessing in disguise. Would like to see him given another shot rather than written off. I know he doesn't fit the system too well, but give a striker the ball in the box and systems don't matter that much. This is very true, people get caught up in systems and formation far too much. With some of the goals we've scored under cocu, especially at the back end of the season you'd think Marriott would thrive. I'd like to see him get a chance now he's completely injury free. If he manages to find the form he had around October November time under lampard, we have a top striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 55 minutes ago, Alpha said: A fully fit Marriott is an oxymoron. If he was Mediterranean cruise ship would you go aboard? Lampard would ride him all the way to Greece and then abandon ship for the Mason Bennett rubber dinghy as they came into port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: I think you over estimate how clinical forwards for the top 6 sides are/were. These are the shots per goal for Waghorn and Marriott when starting at CF (according to Whoscored) over the past two seasons: Waghorn 18/19 - 4.3 19/20 - 7.2 Marriott 18/19 - 5.7 19/20 - 21.5 How do they compare with the most used forwards from this seasons top 6? Watkins - 4.9 Brewster - 5.3 Mitrovic - 5.8 Robson-Kanu - 6.3 Bamford - 8.8 Austin - 9.25 Glatzel - 12.8 Ahh... maybe "1-in-5 Waghorn" is actually quite good. 18/19 Waghorn better than any top 6 CF from this season, with 4 better this season. A fit Marriott (18/19) is only bettered by two from this season. Waghorn's a safe bet to stay fit for the entire season. Marriott, Bennett and Trialist offer enough cover, although I'd only really play Bennett up top when we're chasing a game and only when he's partnered with another CF. I expect goals to be spread throughout the team, rather than mainly the forward 3. I wouldn't be surprised if Waghorn, Marriott, Lawrence, Sibley, Rooney, Knight and a new RW score close to 10 each, with a couple scoring slightly more Statistics don’t you just love them, Included penalties in this analysis? If so I say they skew the data. I’ve seen with my own eyes how good Waghorn is in front of goal, that’ll do for me. His work rate is good but his finishing is woeful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 1 minute ago, TexasRam said: Statistics don’t you just love them, Included penalties in this analysis? If so I say they skew the data. I’ve seen with my own eyes how good Waghorn is in front of goal, that’ll do for me. His work rate is good but his finishing is woeful. Those same players, all positions and sub apps included, penalties excluded... Brewster - 4.9 Watkins - 5.1Marriott 18/19 - 5.7 Robson-Kanu - 6.1 Mitrovic - 6.6Waghorn 18/19 - 7.5 Austin - 8.3Waghorn 19/20 - 8.7 Glatzel - 9.7 Bamford - 10 If Bamford was good enough to lead the line for table topping Leeds, then I can't see why Waghorn or Marriott can't be good enough for us in a top 6 finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 18 minutes ago, TexasRam said: Statistics don’t you just love them, Included penalties in this analysis? If so I say they skew the data. I’ve seen with my own eyes how good Waghorn is in front of goal, that’ll do for me. His work rate is good but his finishing is woeful. This is why stats are helpful as empirical guidelines rather than the truth itself, but also why you should always approach your own opinions and viewpoints of players with a healthy degree of scepticism. We've all seen with our own eyes how Waghorn is in front of goal. The emotion of frustration that comes as a fan when a chances like those are missed is immense. It can also cause us to over-egg the pudding. Yes, Waghorn misses some easy chances at crucial points in matches, but that very quickly turns into a reputation that he misses a lot of chances and/or can't finish. The stats prove that this isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Just now, Duracell said: Waghorn misses some easy chances at crucial points in matches... That is the point, not that he misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: That is the point, not that he misses. Do you think that this has always been the case with Waghorn, or was last season an anomaly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: That is the point, not that he misses. How does he compare to others in the division? I know for a fact people were laughing at Bamford for the sitters he was missing and the amount of points Leeds missed out on as a result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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