RandomAccessMemory Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ramleicester said: Hi. Not logged in for ages but have been looking at what is going on. That rather old post of mine is, I understand, still relevant to the case. If you have a look at Derby County Ltd on the Companies house website you will see a rather odd filing that is a notice that is filed when a person ' no longer has significant control'. One was filed for Mel which is around the time of the transaction. (It could be interpreted as a rather clumsy attempt to seperate Mel from the stadium purchase). It could be that is the EFL's issue in that the transaction was not as 'arms length' as DCFC claimed when getting sign off for the valuation etc. That's probably the EFL's argument, but even with the Companies House filing, however clumsy that may appear, I don't believe it works within the rules. An arms length transaction would be ok, they would still have had to inform the EFL of their intentions (as in the quote below), but even if the EFL were of the impression that was the type of transaction they were signing off I don't understand why they would think it acceptable to ask for any adjustment, when the rules make no mention of it? The quote below also suggests they would have required a copy of the lease by the beginning of the 2018/19 season, which started just over 5 weeks after the transaction date, would that have told them who the new owner was? Or the land registry entry? If there was an issue of misunderstanding wouldn't it have come to light then? It certainly doesn't explain how it took until January 2020 for the charge. https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-4---clubs/ Quote 13.10 Without prejudice to the provisions of Regulation 13.5, a Club shall forthwith notify The League of any proposed change in its circumstances relating to the occupation of its ground. By way of example, and without limitation, a proposed change may include a sale of any freehold interest (with or without subsequent leaseback) or any surrender or variation of a lease or licence. Guidance The Club must have a security of tenure lasting beyond the end of the current season, the League will request at the beginning of each season that each applicable club provide evidence (by way of a copy of a ground share agreement and lease) that they comply with these Regulations. Also insurance, theres a requirement for clubs to have insurance covering their home stadium, I'd guess the valuation plays a huge part in this as it has to cover the things mentioned in the quote below, including the full cost of rebuilding. I can only imagine the cost of insurance for that yet there are people that believe someone would overvalue it by c.£30m. ? Quote 13.11 Each Club shall ensure, or shall procure, that its home ground is insured against damage or destruction by such insured risks as are required by the League from time to time with a reputable insurer (regulated under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000) for the full cost of repairing, rebuilding and reinstating the ground (including all stands) and for these purposes this includes VAT, professional fees (for example architects, surveyors, engineers and solicitors) and any fees payable on any applications for planning permission or other permits or consents which may be required in relation to site preparation, repairing, rebuilding or reinstating the stadium. A Club shall provide The League with full copies of such documentation as The League may reasonably require regarding such insurance policy(ies). Any Club in default of this obligation may have such amounts as the Board shall determine withheld from the Club’s central distributions from the Pool Account until such time as the insurance is in place. Guidance Clubs are advised that the League considers the ‘insured risks’ it would expect to be automatically covered under any policy are: fire, lightning, explosion, impact, earthquake, storm, tempest, flood, bursting or overflowing of water tanks or pipes, damage to underground water, oil or gas pipes or electricity wires or cables, subsidence, ground slip, heave, riot, civil commotion, strikes, labour or political disturbances, malicious damage, aircraft and aerial devices and articles dropped accidentally from them, but may also stipulate other risks against which Clubs may reasonably insure, for example, terrorism. I'd also be really interested to know whether there's a grey area when it comes to transferring players between clubs with a related party owner? I wonder if they come under the same scrutiny regarding fair market value? I'd like to think that they are putting as much time, effort and money into checking those transactions, after all a player's registration is also classed as an asset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 2 hours ago, angieram said: Then you should know that the football over the past few years has in fact been a lot more entertaining than many many more of the seasons inbetween. We've been in or around the hunt for a play off place nearly every season recently, which is some achievement without parachute payments. It's not so long ago we were looking for 50 points as our benchmark for the season. I'm with @David on this one. Was going to post something similar earlier on. I think this season is the first time since 2012/13 that we have not had something to play for on the last day of the season, there wont be many that can say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Was going to post something similar earlier on. I think this season is the first time since 2012/13 that we have not had something to play for on the last day of the season, there wont be many that can say that. 16/17 it was well over before the last game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 6 hours ago, Reggie Greenwood said: I don't think there is any "rose tinted " glasses brigade just people who have come up with different interpretations and opinions of the "doom mongers brigade " ? Well I’m not sure I’ve seen any doom mongers posts. I was referring to the numerous posts that state categoricalLy that the club are whiter than white, and have done nothing wrong. The reality is WE DON’T KNOW. we can’t possibly know. Therefore we will have to await the outcome and hopefully a transparent analysis and verdict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkleyram Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 1 hour ago, RamNut said: Well I’m not sure I’ve seen any doom mongers posts. I was referring to the numerous posts that state categoricalLy that the club are whiter than white, and have done nothing wrong. The reality is WE DON’T KNOW. we can’t possibly know. Therefore we will have to await the outcome and hopefully a transparent analysis and verdict. We’ll get the outcome. On the basis of other cases we won’t get any transparent analysis from the EFL or the IDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlastoEls Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 6 hours ago, David said: Count myself lucky I was born in Derby and not Grimsby. Bloke who sits next to me at work is born and bred Madrid. And let’s just say his footballing sights are somewhat higher! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcfcJG Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 News on the EFL charge is expected in the next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 12 minutes ago, DcfcJG said: News on the EFL charge is expected in the next week. You'd hope so, it's taken long enough. My nagging paranoid fears kicked in with Wednesday getting a 12pt deduction we're gonna be humped but then lodge appeals and challenges. Still, the waiting will be over. Unless of course the mods already know but aren't telling us because they're enjoying us proles not knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 20 minutes ago, DcfcJG said: News on the EFL charge is expected in the next week. The EFL tend to stick to Friday 6pm announcements. It should be announced this upcoming Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACKWORTHRAM Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 21 hours ago, RandomAccessMemory said: That's probably the EFL's argument, but even with the Companies House filing, however clumsy that may appear, I don't believe it works within the rules. An arms length transaction would be ok, they would still have had to inform the EFL of their intentions (as in the quote below), but even if the EFL were of the impression that was the type of transaction they were signing off I don't understand why they would think it acceptable to ask for any adjustment, when the rules make no mention of it? The quote below also suggests they would have required a copy of the lease by the beginning of the 2018/19 season, which started just over 5 weeks after the transaction date, would that have told them who the new owner was? Or the land registry entry? If there was an issue of misunderstanding wouldn't it have come to light then? It certainly doesn't explain how it took until January 2020 for the charge. https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-4---clubs/ Also insurance, theres a requirement for clubs to have insurance covering their home stadium, I'd guess the valuation plays a huge part in this as it has to cover the things mentioned in the quote below, including the full cost of rebuilding. I can only imagine the cost of insurance for that yet there are people that believe someone would overvalue it by c.£30m. ? I'd also be really interested to know whether there's a grey area when it comes to transferring players between clubs with a related party owner? I wonder if they come under the same scrutiny regarding fair market value? I'd like to think that they are putting as much time, effort and money into checking those transactions, after all a player's registration is also classed as an asset. I genuinely think it took till January 2020 because of Steve Gibson. I honestly feel that once he threatened to sue the EFL they had to be seen to be doing something about his complaints to stop them being sued. If Gibson's hadn't mentioned anything then I don't think the EFL would have ever charged us. It could well be that the EFL know they signed off on everything and know we have an extremely strong case. But by doing this it would allow them to say to Gibson "Well we did all in our power but an independent panel has found that they have not done anything against the rules" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FindernRam Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said: It could well be that the EFL know they signed off on everything and know we have an extremely strong case. But by doing this it would allow them to say to Gibson "Well we did all in our power but an independent panel has found that they have not done anything against the rules" What are the odds on an appeal by EFL if we are found innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrisoner Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Dunno why everyone's so worried about a potential 12 pts deduction. We usually deduct more than that ourselves when we play in London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Hopefully it is this week. I have a feeling a lot is on hold until the outcome of this hearing. Not sure if investment is still a possibility, assuming it is, that won't go anywhere until this is out the way. Also I am sure transfers are completely on hold until results are known. Next seasons expectations are literally hanging on the verdict of the EFL and there independent panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topram Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 46 minutes ago, DcfcJG said: News on the EFL charge is expected in the next week. Where have you heard this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACKWORTHRAM Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: Hopefully it is this week. I have a feeling a lot is on hold until the outcome of this hearing. Not sure if investment is still a possibility, assuming it is, that won't go anywhere until this is out the way. Also I am sure transfers are completely on hold until results are known. Next seasons expectations are literally hanging on the verdict of the EFL and there independent panel. I agree. I can't imagine we're allowed to sign players whilst this is hanging over us. I think it's called a soft transfer embargo. We had one when Lampard took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said: I genuinely think it took till January 2020 because of Steve Gibson. I honestly feel that once he threatened to sue the EFL they had to be seen to be doing something about his complaints to stop them being sued. If Gibson's hadn't mentioned anything then I don't think the EFL would have ever charged us. It could well be that the EFL know they signed off on everything and know we have an extremely strong case. But by doing this it would allow them to say to Gibson "Well we did all in our power but an independent panel has found that they have not done anything against the rules" I was thinking the same. Wondering if it could also be that their evidence in the Sheffield Wednesday case is stronger than their evidence in ours as they were charged about 2 months before us but I think the talk was that the investigations were started at about the same time? I know Parry didn't get the job until mid to late September last year, I feel he is likely to be playing a huge part in all this too. The ultimate irony being had he, as someone who helped set up the Premier League, made sure that a fair share of their revenue was distributed down to the rest of the football pyramid in the first place then he'd probably be finding his new job a whole lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 25 minutes ago, FindernRam said: What are the odds on an appeal by EFL if we are found innocent. It would be inevitable, in fact I'd expect them to appeal even if they won, they seem to be appealing everything at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 20 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: Hopefully it is this week. I have a feeling a lot is on hold until the outcome of this hearing. Not sure if investment is still a possibility, assuming it is, that won't go anywhere until this is out the way. Also I am sure transfers are completely on hold until results are known. Next seasons expectations are literally hanging on the verdict of the EFL and there independent panel. I has to be doesn't it, we don't know whether we have to change our amortisation method / whether all of the profits of the stadium sale are accepted. If we win we may still have to change at least one of the above as it may cause a change in the future rules, if we lose we'd definitely have to change at least one of the above and then might get a points deduction of an unknown amount of points, a fine, a transfer embargo on top of that. It's ridiculous that we still don't know. Even the clubs in the playoff final can at least have two plans they can work on, depending on what happens. Our situation is completely unique as anything can happen so you can't even plan. The players are back in next week as well aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 28 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said: I has to be doesn't it, we don't know whether we have to change our amortisation method / whether all of the profits of the stadium sale are accepted. If we win we may still have to change at least one of the above as it may cause a change in the future rules, if we lose we'd definitely have to change at least one of the above and then might get a points deduction of an unknown amount of points, a fine, a transfer embargo on top of that. It's ridiculous that we still don't know. Even the clubs in the playoff final can at least have two plans they can work on, depending on what happens. Our situation is completely unique as anything can happen so you can't even plan. The players are back in next week as well aren't they? Doubt it looking at instagram For some with quarantine rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 I expect no further action bar asking us to change the way we value our players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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