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4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Where 'hopefully' it can be safe? So you are happy for some people to go to work and hope they dont catch it but as soon as they've taken that chance they should go home and lock themselves up so nobody else catches it?

Im sure you will be aware that most workplaces are a congregation of multi generation groups.

Although I'm not sure that your last sentence is a fact (unless the whole country had been locked down since day one, I think that point has been debated enough).

If its important to keep the economy going why have thousands of covid secure businesses been closed down and others been allowed to remain open?

Arbitrary closures with little or no basis.

Big business carry on as you are, little competitors close down please.

If you dont see this as an attack on peoples lives I don't know what you would see as being so.

I look forward to you source showing that most of the country and world agree with you. (Dont worry this is a joke, we both know this is just hyperbole to try and make your point look correct).

Are you suggesting that they did not follow any guidance from SAGE at all until after the second wave?

 

Agreed.

So pointing out that there have been ulterior motives for some of their actions is not conspiracy theory, strange that this was one of the things levelled @Archiedthen?

Ok will drop the defence of @Archiedas I obviously am unaware of what I am defending him against.

I'm not saying the Government are attacking all of the people but yes certain peoples lives and livelihoods are being destroyed while others sit at home getting paid for doing nothing.

If you fell into the former group I am sure you would have a different opinion.

I’ve been pretty clear that the lockdown s and restrictions in the way they have been implemented have actually turned out to attack peoples lives more than they have attacked the virus in real terms , rather than look at the issue some just cry conspiracy 🤷‍♂️
 

for the umpteenth time I will repeat for them

yes I believe there is a virus out there

yes I believe it dangerous and kills

do I agree with how it’s been handled in this country? NO

do I believe there’s plenty of not letting a good crisis go to waste ?

hell yes

 

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31 minutes ago, Archied said:

But aren’t I saying I know full well I’ve had it easier than a hell of a lot of people🤷🏻‍♂️,, what’s fascinating about the blunt undeniable truth?

why would someone living in a high rise flat with kids ,on universal credit , no or poor internet for kids to learn let alone feed them have a different perspective, selfish buggers ,don’t they know we are all in this together 🤷🏻‍♂️ especially now all self proclaimed social justice warriors can’t be seen for dust

I know exactly what you are saying.  There was a Sky News article I linked in this thread probably around March/April last year that showed a park full of people calling them 'covidiots' etc, the usual stuff.  In the background of this picture were tower blocks 😕

My wife and I work from home and during the course of the past year the business we have spent 10 years building up has lost around 75% of its typical income (although its picked up quite a bit since Jan weirdly).  Fortunately we've been thinking about winding down anyway so its not effected us financially.  Mentally, whilst I miss watching live football, going to the cinema and eating out we've been very lucky - we live in a nice house with a big garden across the road from a park.  We have 2 kids, a dog, lots of chickens are all get along just fine.  Fortunately all 4 of us are also big gamers so staying home all day every day has just meant we can indulge our gaming habits!  Having said that, since Christmas I must admit that I'm slowly starting to go stir crazy.

I can't imagine being a single parent in a tower block with 2 kids climbing the walls and very little means of educating them.  Constant noise coming from the flats above and below and being told I'm a covidiot for going out and sitting a park for some respite. 

It is so much easier to criticise others when you are sitting in relative comfort watching cricket on Sky quaffing Belgian beer.

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17 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I know exactly what you are saying.  There was a Sky News article I linked in this thread probably around March/April last year that showed a park full of people calling them 'covidiots' etc, the usual stuff.  In the background of this picture were tower blocks 😕

My wife and I work from home and during the course of the past year the business we have spent 10 years building up has lost around 75% of its typical income (although its picked up quite a bit since Jan weirdly).  Fortunately we've been thinking about winding down anyway so its not effected us financially.  Mentally, whilst I miss watching live football, going to the cinema and eating out we've been very lucky - we live in a nice house with a big garden across the road from a park.  We have 2 kids, a dog, lots of chickens are all get along just fine.  Fortunately all 4 of us are also big gamers so staying home all day every day has just meant we can indulge our gaming habits!  Having said that, since Christmas I must admit that I'm slowly starting to go stir crazy.

I can't imagine being a single parent in a tower block with 2 kids climbing the walls and very little means of educating them.  Constant noise coming from the flats above and below and being told I'm a covidiot for going out and sitting a park for some respite. 

It is so much easier to criticise others when you are sitting in relative comfort watching cricket on Sky quaffing Belgian beer.

That’s actually what’s turned out to be the most shocking thing for me as this has progressed , the amount of people who you would normally expect to be understanding of others who have shown a whole different side,

on another note , I have never voted conservative in my life , I don’t particularly like Boris , his actions, words or what he stands for BUT that does not mean that I can never agree on ANYTHING he ever says but this seems to be the rule of thumb for some , pick a side and one side is always wrong and should not be listened to the other always right and every word trusted ,

ah well , finish my coffee in the van and up the ladder for me 

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51 minutes ago, Archied said:

I’ve been pretty clear that the lockdown s and restrictions in the way they have been implemented have actually turned out to attack peoples lives more than they have attacked the virus in real terms , rather than look at the issue some just cry conspiracy 🤷‍♂️
 

for the umpteenth time I will repeat for them

yes I believe there is a virus out there

yes I believe it dangerous and kills

do I agree with how it’s been handled in this country? NO

do I believe there’s plenty of not letting a good crisis go to waste ?

hell yes

 

But that is different to saying that protecting people is way down the government's list of priorities or that they are attacking people.

I've challenged you on extreme language and you and @G STAR RAM's responses have been to raise all different sort of points about how hard things are for certain people. That is true, but doesn't excuse your extreme language.

After months of saying that lockdowns are ruining people's lives and need to stop, you now seem to be saying that if anyone should be under lockdown, everyone should.

Edited by ariotofmyown
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1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Ok will drop the defence of @Archiedas I obviously am unaware of what I am defending him against.

I'm not saying the Government are attacking all of the people but yes certain peoples lives and livelihoods are being destroyed while others sit at home getting paid for doing nothing.

If you fell into the former group I am sure you would have a different opinion.

Good. Glad you recognise that saying that certain livelihoods are being destroyed whilst others are getting paid for doing nothing is not the same as saying the government are attacking people.

If I worked in hospitality or airline industry say, I still wouldn't think the government is attacking me.

Archie's main beef with the government actually seems to be that he is being put in danger rather than his livelihood is being destroyed. Whereas yours seems to be that lockdowns should not be happening as it's negatively impacting the business you work for. 

Edited by ariotofmyown
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15 hours ago, Archied said:

Im of the opinion that lockdowns can work and there is a place and time where you have no choice but to employ them if they are done right and fairly to give them any chance of success,,, 

the above is nothing like what we are experiencing and have experienced in the U.K

What's weird is that you are saying here, exactly what I said. Lockdowns can work, but we've really got ours wrong - to the point where our outcomes have been in the same ballpark (ie equally terrible) as a country like Sweden that didn't enforce a strict lockdown.

So I'm happy to agree that we're on the same page in that respect

So why is it that when I said the above, I got @TexasRamjumping straight on me telling me I'm wrong, but has let you off the hook?

The good news is that I think he's the last man standing in the thread who still swears blind that "lockdowns don't work" - everyone else seems sensible enough to admit that the principle of lockdowns is obviously sound (limit social contact = less transmission = less case/hospitalisations/deaths) but a badly executed lockdown can sometimes be as bad as not locking down at all. Exacerbated by the fact that a badly executed lockdown also drags on a lot longer and vastly increases the non-covid related problems associated with lockdown

 

 

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40 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

But that is different to saying that protecting people is way down the government's list of priorities or that they are attacking people.

I've challenged you on extreme language and you and @G STAR RAM's responses have been to raise all different sort of points about how hard things are for certain people. That is true, but doesn't excuse your extreme language.

After months of saying that lockdowns are ruining people's lives and need to stop, you now seem to be saying that if anyone should be under lockdown, everyone should.

Protecting certain people's lives and livelihoods is high up the Governments agenda, saving others lives and livelihoods hasn't even registered.

This was epitomised the other day when Rishi Sunak chose a multi millionaire, who has been living in their holiday home in Cornwall, whilst setting up his new tv show, to discuss the impact of the restrictions on the hospitality sector...you really couldn't make it up!

Not sure what you class as extreme language? Id say accusing people of being right wing conspiracy theorists is quite  a bit more extreme than accusing the Government of attacking people, maybe thats just me.

Nowhere have I said everyone should be under lockdown. I have said if it is safe for people to go to work to keep the economy going, it is obscene to then tell these same people that is unsafe to see a family member or friend even in your garden or in a park.

The Government has literally removed the right for people to use their common sense.

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4 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

What's weird is that you are saying here, exactly what I said. Lockdowns can work, but we've really got ours wrong - to the point where our outcomes have been in the same ballpark (ie equally terrible) as a country like Sweden that didn't enforce a strict lockdown.

So I'm happy to agree that we're on the same page in that respect

So why is it that when I said the above, I got @TexasRamjumping straight on me telling me I'm wrong, but has let you off the hook?

The good news is that I think he's the last man standing in the thread who still swears blind that "lockdowns don't work" - everyone else seems sensible enough to admit that the principle of lockdowns is obviously sound (limit social contact = less transmission = less case/hospitalisations/deaths) but a badly executed lockdown can sometimes be as bad as not locking down at all. Exacerbated by the fact that a badly executed lockdown also drags on a lot longer and vastly increases the non-covid related problems associated with lockdown

Why do you think the first lockdown was badly implemented?

My recollection is that we were pretty much housebound for 13 weeks and when allowed out people obeyed social distancing measures.

 

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3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The big problem for me was that it was 3 weeks late.

But thats pretty irrelevant to the question.

Once we had locked down, wasnt 13 weeks long enough to get things under control?

What is the timeline of these things? 1 week for symptoms, 2 weeks until hospitalization a further 2 weeks until death or recovery?

 

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49 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

But that is different to saying that protecting people is way down the government's list of priorities or that they are attacking people.

I've challenged you on extreme language and you and @G STAR RAM's responses have been to raise all different sort of points about how hard things are for certain people. That is true, but doesn't excuse your extreme language.

After months of saying that lockdowns are ruining people's lives and need to stop, you now seem to be saying that if anyone should be under lockdown, everyone should.

Nope again reading into what you want,

ive said the the lives of me and my family have been and still are way down the priority s list for gov or plenty joe public during all this , can’t be denied,

nope not saying if I’m locked down so should everyone else , that’s been Eddie’s domain through shielding,

what I am saying ( again ) is that whether you believe lockdown in this country has been right or wrong from day one it certainly isn’t now , tipping point lives v lives has well and truly been reached and they need to be stopped and that’s from a position of probably being in the most at risk catagory NOW,

your extreme language is another persons straight talking , though I don’t remember extreme language being a problem for you when it was the other way round , regards killing people , not caring about deaths and so on,,🤷‍♂️
I would have more respect if you just came out and said duck it I’m backing what’s best for me and mine

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5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Why do you think the first lockdown was badly implemented?

My recollection is that we were pretty much housebound for 13 weeks and when allowed out people obeyed social distancing measures.

Looking back, I think it could have come in a bit earlier. The way the Government handled it - we all knew it was coming for at least a week prior to the official start of lockdown on March 23rd. The "advance notice" policies were stupid - just gave people a reason for one last hurrah. But fundamentally we knew the direction and speed of the trajectory, so if we'd locked down earlier, the quicker we could have exited

And then factor in all the other elements of the track and trace fiasco and the lack of screening for travellers - we weren't helping ourselves at all their - and it feels like we wasted a lot of the gains we made in that first lockdown

Just checking my script and now that I've answered your question in good faith, you get to call me Captain Hindsight

😂

 

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15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Why do you think the first lockdown was badly implemented?

My recollection is that we were pretty much housebound for 13 weeks and when allowed out people obeyed social distancing measures.

 

Again that was very different for some , I fully remember watching the briefing whilst my family said we were in full lock down I said nope that’s not the case ,,, the next morning showed precisely that with construction sites left open , so go to work archie and risk this virus that’s killing everyone in its path or don’t go and have your jobs and contacts taken by those who will work😂, but remember your unsafe and need to be locked up in every other area🤷‍♂️,

been like that from day one and nothing has changed,

I know you fully understand that but others either don’t or won’t 

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5 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Looking back, I think it could have come in a bit earlier. The way the Government handled it - we all knew it was coming for at least a week prior to the official start of lockdown on March 23rd. The "advance notice" policies were stupid - just gave people a reason for one last hurrah. But fundamentally we knew the direction and speed of the trajectory, so if we'd locked down earlier, the quicker we could have exited

And then factor in all the other elements of the track and trace fiasco and the lack of screening for travellers - we weren't helping ourselves at all their - and it feels like we wasted a lot of the gains we made in that first lockdown

Just checking my script and now that I've answered your question in good faith, you get to call me Captain Hindsight

😂

 

No, not at all. There were plenty of people calling for lockdowns for weeks before we actually did it, whether you was one of them I don't remember and really cant be bothered to look back through the thread.

Regarding the locking down of borders and testing on arrival, I am pretty sure I recall members of SAGE saying it was a pointless exercise, this I will look back and see what I can find.

The track and trace fiasco, I have yet to have explained to me. Although it appears quite basic, the app seems to do the job. If people don't want to use it or are not contactable I dont know the solution (but there again I am not paid millions of pounds to come up with that solution!)

The first lockdown, as I remember, reduced all of the key indicators so I don't understand why people consider it badly implemented.

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7 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Looking back, I think it could have come in a bit earlier. The way the Government handled it - we all knew it was coming for at least a week prior to the official start of lockdown on March 23rd. The "advance notice" policies were stupid - just gave people a reason for one last hurrah. But fundamentally we knew the direction and speed of the trajectory, so if we'd locked down earlier, the quicker we could have exited

And then factor in all the other elements of the track and trace fiasco and the lack of screening for travellers - we weren't helping ourselves at all their - and it feels like we wasted a lot of the gains we made in that first lockdown

 

I think thats the key factor.  Most, if not all of us agree that the first lockdown was warranted - we were heading into the unknown and it seemed like the last best option.

The lack of action to control covid after we exited lockdown though has been a source of frustration and made further lockdowns both neccessary and a waste of time in equal measure. 

I blame he government, the media and the general public for their roles during the past 12 months and am just thankful that the vaccine is now offering us a way out.  I'd like to think lessons will be learnt for the next crisis but I'm not holding my breath. 

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1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

The first lockdown, as I remember, reduced all of the key indicators so I don't understand why people consider it badly implemented.

It did, yes. The two main points I'm raising are that - in retrospect

1) if we'd entered earlier, it would have been shorter and

2) we exited badly without having a realistic plan for keeping the virus at bay

I think a lot of the good will people built up in that first lockdown was lost after the summer. Feels like we all did our bit and we were let down by the the management of restrictions between September and January

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I'm really fed up with everything. Understand why restrictions continue to be required beyond the vaccination of the most vulnerable and I understand that we have huge case numbers and hospitalisations (although gradually improving), however what I don't understand is how other countries in worse situations than ours feel able to unlock further and faster than us. 

Makes me feel like I should have broken the rules over Christmas in order to see family as it seems unlikely I'll be seeing them over Easter either. 

Seems to be little faith in the vaccination programme from the government. 

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17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

But thats pretty irrelevant to the question.

Once we had locked down, wasnt 13 weeks long enough to get things under control?

What is the timeline of these things? 1 week for symptoms, 2 weeks until hospitalization a further 2 weeks until death or recovery?

 

The longer a fire is allowed to go unchecked, the further it spreads. In the early days, there was no contact-tracing at all, and the infection spread in an uncontrolled manner with nobody having any idea of the numbers. In reality, it was never a lockdown for most people, and still isn't. The numbers did come down, then everything opened up again and....

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