Coronavirus

[Albert]

34 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Understand what you are saying but this is where there is just no logic. 

@Archiedhas to go to work to be able to support his family, that is considered safe, if not the Government would be paying him to stay at home, yet its not safe for him to see people in his life away from work.

While I agree with the central idea here, @Archied does indeed press the idea that there's something more sinister behind the lockdowns. Personally, I wouldn't attribute to malice what is better explained by incompetence. 

Australia gave up on pretending workplaces, etc were secure a long time ago. Now the aim is to record down who has gone to which public places when, and do contact tracing. This allows outbreaks to be rapidly contained by ringfencing. This has worked remarkably well, despite some breaches of hotel quarantine, usually staff catching the disease and bringing it home. 

The UK really should be doing a lot more to support those impacted by the lockdown, but I suspect the shear scale of it has left them in a position of feeling that it's just not possible anymore. Another consequence of their failed response. 

[ramit]

Interesting

 

[G STAR RAM]

Just now, ariotofmyown said:

Yeah, he has done it loads. Even when I tried to engage him on what possible evidence he has for sinister motives, he produced a emergency global pandemic session? Seriously.

Even today he said "I live in this country, lockdown and restrictions as we know it / them in this country are not an attack on the virus ,they’re  an attack on people and people’s lives".

He is accusing the government of attacks on people and their lives.

How can you defend this sort of extreme and hysterical language?

First paragraph is conspiracy theory type material but I found it interesting. 

Not sure why you see the rest as conspiracy theory? 

The current restrictions ARE an attack on our civil liberties, not sure how you can think otherwise. 

As I asked @Eddieif people can be trusted to work in covid secure workplaces how can they not be trusted to go to covid secure shops, restaurants, football grounds?

The Government have appointed themselves to keep me safe and also decide whether I am sensible enough to make my own decisions on keeping other people safe. At no point have I asked them to do this.

I don't want the Government ruling my life based on how other people may or may not behave.

If the Government told you tomorrow that you could no longer drive a car because other drivers are driving too fast would you see this as an attack on your life?

 

[uttoxram75]

14 minutes ago, ramit said:

Interesting

 

They don't do anything to stop the conspiracy theories do they?

Absolute shambles, unfit for office.

[BIllyD]

28 minutes ago, ramit said:

Interesting

 

This is from October ??

[ramit]

8 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

They don't do anything to stop the conspiracy theories do they?

Absolute shambles, unfit for office.

The question that springs to mind is why pretend to have a trial done and make up the conclusion?  What could drive him to do such a thing?  Hmm.

[ramit]

11 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

This is from October ??

It seems so, yes, but that's even worse.  Why is this man still a minister then 4 months later?

[ariotofmyown]

30 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

First paragraph is conspiracy theory type material but I found it interesting. 

Not sure why you see the rest as conspiracy theory? 

The current restrictions ARE an attack on our civil liberties, not sure how you can think otherwise. 

As I asked @Eddieif people can be trusted to work in covid secure workplaces how can they not be trusted to go to covid secure shops, restaurants, football grounds?

The Government have appointed themselves to keep me safe and also decide whether I am sensible enough to make my own decisions on keeping other people safe. At no point have I asked them to do this.

I don't want the Government ruling my life based on how other people may or may not behave.

If the Government told you tomorrow that you could no longer drive a car because other drivers are driving too fast would you see this as an attack on your life?

 

That old car analogy is dire. If reckless drivers caused 100k deaths in less than a year, then telling people to stop driving would be obvious. No doubt speed limits, seatbelts etc are also an attack on our civil liberties. The only restrictions that don't seem to upset people are the anti-terror ones. Strange as so few deaths happen to us from terror attacks...those restrictions must be working brilliantly to prevent those 1000s of deaths!

Worried to see that you share Archie's view that lockdowns are an attack on people. I thought you were rather more considered than that. I'm sure it possible to debate the pros and cons of lockdowns without resorting to the extremes of the government attacks on people.

You have a strange relationship with this government. You appear to think they are attacking people and trying to remove our freedoms for shady reasons, yet also regularly make excuses for much of their blatant incompetence and mistakes.

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Albert said:

If you're sick of people calling you out for laughing at deaths, maybe stop laughing at deaths. Just a thought. 

I'm not sure where you've gotten this 'understand everything in the universe better than anybody else with ease' line from. It seems you take someone actually doing some research into points before wildly posting random hottakes to mean someone feels they're somehow better. I don't, and personally, I think arguments should stand apart from who has written them. Someone who knows better can make an appallingly weak argument, someone who doesn't, with proper research, can make a good argument. The point is, however, you evaluate an argument based on the evidence presented, and evidence available elsewhere, not based on who you feel is making it. 

Read that far and stopped , laughing at you not deaths as discussed 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Yeah, he has done it loads. Even when I tried to engage him on what possible evidence he has for sinister motives, he produced a emergency global pandemic session? Seriously.

Even today he said "I live in this country, lockdown and restrictions as we know it / them in this country are not an attack on the virus ,they’re  an attack on people and people’s lives".

He is accusing the government of attacks on people and their lives.

How can you defend this sort of extreme and hysterical language?

again paranoid non sense and you can’t answer

as for your attempts to manipulate another poster to join your gang or risk losing all his hard earned credibility on the forum ???? Wow just wow , that’s the kind of stuff you see in the playground, it’s often called bullying, doesn’t worry me as I don’t really worry about that kind of stuff and I’m pretty sure any self respecting poster will see through it very easily but honestly is that really where you want to go ? It’s not grown up behaviour 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Over the last few months he has repeatedly posted accusations of the government behaving in a sinister fashion and that there are other "real" reasons why we are being held under lockdown.

I don't know why you get dragged into supporting him. You are better than that.

I know ,, let’s stick a label on someone ,doesn’t matter if it s true just keep saying it over and over , make them either a conspiracy theorist , antivaxer , covid denier , right wing extremists, racist ,homophobe ,any one or all of those together ,no matter , 

then threaten anybody who may agree with ANY point they make with being seen as the same thing job done

do you not see that tactic is very worn now and easy to spot ,in fact it stands out like a soar thumb 

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

That old car analogy is dire. If reckless drivers caused 100k deaths in less than a year, then telling people to stop driving would be obvious. No doubt speed limits, seatbelts etc are also an attack on our civil liberties. The only restrictions that don't seem to upset people are the anti-terror ones. Strange as so few deaths happen to us from terror attacks...those restrictions must be working brilliantly to prevent those 1000s of deaths!

Worried to see that you share Archie's view that lockdowns are an attack on people. I thought you were rather more considered than that. I'm sure it possible to debate the pros and cons of lockdowns without resorting to the extremes of the government attacks on people.

You have a strange relationship with this government. You appear to think they are attacking people and trying to remove our freedoms for shady reasons, yet also regularly make excuses for much of their blatant incompetence and mistakes.

Are you throwing terrorism so that you can try and morph this into something to do racism because the other labels you are using are clearly not working?

I'm worried that you seem to think what the Government are doing is appropriate and proportionate. 

Answer me this simple question - is it right for the Government to allow people to go to work under the guise of it being 'covid secure' but not allow people to carry out any leisure activities or even see their own family because it is too dangerous. Think very clearly about what I have just said there before answering.

I don't think my relationship with this Government as you call it is strange. If they something good I praise them, if they do something bad I criticise them. Its called being objective.

I find your relationship with them strange though. 4 years of telling us they are liars and only out for personal gain, now we must obey everything they say and anyone questioning personal gain is labelled a conspiracy theorist, would you not agree your shift has been quite dramatic?

 

[Eddie]

41 minutes ago, Archied said:

I know ,, let’s stick a label on someone ,doesn’t matter if it s true just keep saying it over and over , make them either a conspiracy theorist , antivaxer , covid denier , right wing extremists, racist ,homophobe ,any one or all of those together ,no matter , 

then threaten anybody who may agree with ANY point they make with being seen as the same thing job done

do you not see that tactic is very worn now and easy to spot ,in fact it stands out like a soar thumb 

We all know who the monster is here - the crazy old man who brought the disease in from Belgium, disguised as Trappist beer.

?

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Answer me this simple question - is it right for the Government to allow people to go to work under the guise of it being 'covid secure' but not allow people to carry out any leisure activities or even see their own family because it is too dangerous. Think very clearly about what I have just said there before answering.

Yes, I think it's essential that the government try to keep economical activity happening where it can hopefully be safe, whilst protecting people from congregating in multi-generational groups of friends and families. We have a huge death toll of Covid and without these rules we would have lots more deaths.

Of course there will be examples of workplaces that are not safe enough, but it's important to keep the economy going where possible. The government have done a reasonable job of supporting badly impacted industries and employees, but no doubt they could have done more, especially for self-employed.

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm worried that you seem to think what the Government are doing is appropriate and proportionate. 

Most the country, and world, agree with me.

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I find your relationship with them strange though. 4 years of telling us they are liars and only out for personal gain, now we must obey everything they say and anyone questioning personal gain is labelled a conspiracy theorist, would you not agree your shift has been quite dramatic?

Well not really. I was blissfully unaware of nearly the entire government before the last election, minus Johnson and Gove. I believed they would be very poor leaders and their lies/promises will come back to haunt them. They have failed in multiple ways throughout Covid, and it's taken two devastating waves for them to start listening to the experts. 4 years of deriding experts takes it's toll.

Some of them are clearly sorting out themselves and their friends through the pandemic too. This is no conspiracy theory, it's totally obvious corruption.

Again, you are saying I'm painting anyone who disagrees with them a conspiracy theorist. I'm not at all. I'm saying that Archie has frequently posted conspiracy style ideas of what their "real" agenda is, most of which you seemed to have missed. 

Claiming that the government are "attacking the people" is a gross exaggeration that almost no one on here would agree with.

[Archied]

7 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Yes, I think it's essential that the government try to keep economical activity happening where it can hopefully be safe, whilst protecting people from congregating in multi-generational groups of friends and families. We have a huge death toll of Covid and without these rules we would have lots more deaths.

Of course there will be examples of workplaces that are not safe enough, but it's important to keep the economy going where possible. The government have done a reasonable job of supporting badly impacted industries and employees, but no doubt they could have done more, especially for self-employed.

Most the country, and world, agree with me.

Well not really. I was blissfully unaware of nearly the entire government before the last election, minus Johnson and Gove. I believed they would be very poor leaders and their lies/promises will come back to haunt them. They have failed in multiple ways throughout Covid, and it's taken two devastating waves for them to start listening to the experts. 4 years of deriding experts takes it's toll.

Some of them are clearly sorting out themselves and their friends through the pandemic too. This is no conspiracy theory, it's totally obvious corruption.

Again, you are saying I'm painting anyone who disagrees with them a conspiracy theorist. I'm not at all. I'm saying that Archie has frequently posted conspiracy style ideas of what their "real" agenda is, most of which you seemed to have missed. 

Claiming that the government are "attacking the people" is a gross exaggeration that almost no one on here would agree with.

So economy over lives is ok for you now ?, there has never been a lock down of the economy from day one , this keep economic activity going where it can you speak of is la la land guff spoken by somebody who is obviously sheltered from real world Britain over the last year

yet again in this country the mismash of rules and how and when they are implemented make them more of an attack on people than they actually are on the virus , again you decide whether that’s incompetence, stupidity, corruption or sinister , but decide for you not for me

my bet is you work from home or (parent supported)get full money and feel pretty protected 

we are one year in now so should have a clue ( this is not new ) explain how the border policy is an attack on the virus 

[Archied]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

We all know who the monster is here - the crazy old man who brought the disease in from Belgium, disguised as Trappist beer.

?

Will answer later , got to get off to work now out in the real world with my don’t worry about covid head on, speak again tonight with my scared poo less head back on , enjoy your day and let’s hope we can keep this lockdown in place until your vaccine kicks in ,but get it lifted in time for the cricket season ?

[Albert]

13 minutes ago, Archied said:

So economy over lives is ok for you now ?, there has never been a lock down of the economy from day one , this keep economic activity going where it can you speak of is la la land guff spoken by somebody who is obviously sheltered from real world Britain over the last year

The point is more about the balance, getting maximum benefit for least harm and all of that. 

13 minutes ago, Archied said:

yet again in this country the mismash of rules and how and when they are implemented make them more of an attack on people than they actually are on the virus , again you decide whether that’s incompetence, stupidity, corruption or sinister , but decide for you not for me

While I don't actually disagree with the sentiment here that the UK's implementation of rules and policies has been an omnishambles, it did successfully slow and turn around infection rates on multiple occasions. 

13 minutes ago, Archied said:

my bet is you work from home or (parent supported)get full money and feel pretty protected 

I find it fascinating that everyone on here seems to think other groups have found this time easier than themselves. 

13 minutes ago, Archied said:

we are one year in now so should have a clue ( this is not new ) explain how the border policy is an attack on the virus 

Stocks the spread of the virus from other countries, which helps efforts to contain it in the UK. This is particularly important with the risks posed of the new strains. 

[Archied]

11 minutes ago, Albert said:

The point is more about the balance, getting maximum benefit for least harm and all of that. 

While I don't actually disagree with the sentiment here that the UK's implementation of rules and policies has been an omnishambles, it did successfully slow and turn around infection rates on multiple occasions. 

I find it fascinating that everyone on here seems to think other groups have found this time easier than themselves. 

Stocks the spread of the virus from other countries, which helps efforts to contain it in the UK. This is particularly important with the risks posed of the new strains. 

But aren’t I saying I know full well I’ve had it easier than a hell of a lot of people??‍♂️,, what’s fascinating about the blunt undeniable truth?

why would someone living in a high rise flat with kids ,on universal credit , no or poor internet for kids to learn let alone feed them have a different perspective, selfish buggers ,don’t they know we are all in this together ??‍♂️ especially now all self proclaimed social justice warriors can’t be seen for dust

[Albert]

32 minutes ago, Archied said:

But aren’t I saying I know full well I’ve had it easier than a hell of a lot of people??‍♂️,, what’s fascinating about the blunt undeniable truth?

why would someone living in a high rise flat with kids ,on universal credit , no or poor internet for kids to learn let alone feed them have a different perspective, selfish buggers ,don’t they know we are all in this together ??‍♂️ especially now all self proclaimed social justice warriors can’t be seen for dust

As noted, I feel the UK could have done far better out of all this, particularly around supporting those impacted most by the restrictions. That's the biggest tragedy out of all of this. The people who are paying for the errors in not following advice earlier are the very ones the government has refused to support through this. 

[G STAR RAM]

7 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Yes, I think it's essential that the government try to keep economical activity happening where it can hopefully be safe, whilst protecting people from congregating in multi-generational groups of friends and families. We have a huge death toll of Covid and without these rules we would have lots more deaths.

Where 'hopefully' it can be safe? So you are happy for some people to go to work and hope they dont catch it but as soon as they've taken that chance they should go home and lock themselves up so nobody else catches it?

Im sure you will be aware that most workplaces are a congregation of multi generation groups.

Although I'm not sure that your last sentence is a fact (unless the whole country had been locked down since day one, I think that point has been debated enough).

7 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Of course there will be examples of workplaces that are not safe enough, but it's important to keep the economy going where possible. The government have done a reasonable job of supporting badly impacted industries and employees, but no doubt they could have done more, especially for self-employed.

Most the country, and world, agree with me.

If its important to keep the economy going why have thousands of covid secure businesses been closed down and others been allowed to remain open?

Arbitrary closures with little or no basis.

Big business carry on as you are, little competitors close down please.

If you dont see this as an attack on peoples lives I don't know what you would see as being so.

I look forward to you source showing that most of the country and world agree with you. (Dont worry this is a joke, we both know this is just hyperbole to try and make your point look correct).

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Well not really. I was blissfully unaware of nearly the entire government before the last election, minus Johnson and Gove. I believed they would be very poor leaders and their lies/promises will come back to haunt them. They have failed in multiple ways throughout Covid, and it's taken two devastating waves for them to start listening to the experts. 4 years of deriding experts takes it's toll.

Are you suggesting that they did not follow any guidance from SAGE at all until after the second wave?

 

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Some of them are clearly sorting out themselves and their friends through the pandemic too. This is no conspiracy theory, it's totally obvious corruption.

Agreed.

So pointing out that there have been ulterior motives for some of their actions is not conspiracy theory, strange that this was one of the things levelled @Archiedthen?

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Again, you are saying I'm painting anyone who disagrees with them a conspiracy theorist. I'm not at all. I'm saying that Archie has frequently posted conspiracy style ideas of what their "real" agenda is, most of which you seemed to have missed. 

Claiming that the government are "attacking the people" is a gross exaggeration that almost no one on here would agree with.

Ok will drop the defence of @Archiedas I obviously am unaware of what I am defending him against.

I'm not saying the Government are attacking all of the people but yes certain peoples lives and livelihoods are being destroyed while others sit at home getting paid for doing nothing.

If you fell into the former group I am sure you would have a different opinion.