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23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes in retrospect elimination would have been better strategy to go for.

We didn't go for it and we are where we are.

If you cared about mental health you would not be advocating extending the lockdown once all of the vulnerable people have been vaccinated.

I've not advocated for extending lockdown. 

Mental health care will not be helped by a third/fourth wave, you seem to be ignoring this wholesale. If you actually cared about mental health, you'd be all for a measured, staged exit from lockdown. 

23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm sure you know how to use Google. 

You're always using data in your responses to back your point up, the fact that you are pretending that the data for this is not available in the public domain is very telling.

I do know 'how to use Google', but you're saying that there are these numbers that support your position. Clearly, myself and others disagree. If you feel these numbers exist, provide them, as 'just Google it' doesn't really work when those numbers don't seem to exist in the first place. 

Again, what are these numbers, and how do they support your position? You refusal to back your point is telling. 

19 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Would you like to define official accounts?

Given you're the one who keeps talking about the 'official narrative', I'd suggest you're more than qualified to answer this question yourself. 

19 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Do you mean the ones the media could find that would give them what they wanted to hear.

I've looked at the admission stats and am comfortable with my position thanks.

I'd suggest you do your research and come to your own conclusion rather than just listen to what the media tell you.

You keep saying you've done your research, but you can't provide any of it. What are these admission stats that you 'looked at', and how do they support this position. If you've actually looked into these stats, this should be a trivial thing for you to provide.

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35 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Well everything else would be down because people arent allowed out of their houses.

And guess what the NHS has adapted to utilise this extra capacity to cope with Covid admissions.

And lets not forget around 1 in 4 or 5 of people in hospital with Covid have actually caught Covid in the hospital when there for something else. 

I'm not suggesting that there wasn't danger (mainly because staff were off ill rather than hospital capacity) but I don't believe it was any more at risk of collapse than any normal year.

I'm sure if it is as bad as you say then there will be some stats that you can easily lay your hands on to prove it.

I'm not going to spend half an hour searching for stats so you can say 'yeh but'.

You don't care about stats.

You are buried so deep in your conspiracy theory that no amount of reason can drag you out of it.

To paraphrase Jonathan Swift, you cannot use reason and logic to change the mind of somebody whose opinion is not based on reason or logic.

I keep dipping in and out of this thread and every time I'm reminded by some posters of what it was like trying to use reason with Trump supporters in an internet age where they can find *facts* to support any argument no matter how preposterous or nonsensical. 

And on that note I shall bow out again and let you continue your none stop arguing with others.

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I do think the NHS collapsing topic is a bit of the boy who cried wolf. We hear about it being under pressure most years. In fact a very quick search pulled up this quote from an article on the BBC website.

"The past few months - if not the whole year - have seen a constant stream of warnings about impending Armageddon in the health service.

We have heard how the system has reached various levels of crisis from "tipping point" and "breaking point" to "on the brink of collapse".

But is it really that bad? And if so, what can we expect in 2017?"

If we keep being told its on the brink of collapse and it never happens its fairly acceptable that people may doubt it will happen this time. I don't think people should be criticised for having that point of view. 

And to be fair it hasn't collapsed. How close its been to collapsing this time around vs other years I guess none of us will ever know. 

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1 minute ago, Cardinal said:

I do think the NHS collapsing topic is a bit of the boy who cried wolf. We hear about it being under pressure most years. In fact a very quick search pulled up this quote from an article on the BBC website.

"The past few months - if not the whole year - have seen a constant stream of warnings about impending Armageddon in the health service.

We have heard how the system has reached various levels of crisis from "tipping point" and "breaking point" to "on the brink of collapse".

But is it really that bad? And if so, what can we expect in 2017?"

If we keep being told its on the brink of collapse and it never happens its fairly acceptable that people may doubt it will happen this time. I don't think people should be criticised for having that point of view. 

And to be fair it hasn't collapsed. How close its been to collapsing this time around vs other years I guess none of us will ever know. 

People with covid were sent to care homes to die so they would have enough room in hospitals. I would have thought was a reasonable indicator.   

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9 minutes ago, Cardinal said:

I do think the NHS collapsing topic is a bit of the boy who cried wolf. We hear about it being under pressure most years. In fact a very quick search pulled up this quote from an article on the BBC website.

"The past few months - if not the whole year - have seen a constant stream of warnings about impending Armageddon in the health service.

We have heard how the system has reached various levels of crisis from "tipping point" and "breaking point" to "on the brink of collapse".

But is it really that bad? And if so, what can we expect in 2017?"

If we keep being told its on the brink of collapse and it never happens its fairly acceptable that people may doubt it will happen this time. I don't think people should be criticised for having that point of view. 

And to be fair it hasn't collapsed. How close its been to collapsing this time around vs other years I guess none of us will ever know. 

My bank account is often at risk of collapse, happens quite often but I take action to stop that happening. My missus thinks it's a ploy to stop her spending money as it happens around the same time every year, in winter when all the annual bills come out, each time she says but you said the same last year.

True story honest.......(ok maybe not)

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16 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Just wondering at what point you started believing everything the Government said?

You are on of the main culprits for spending the last 4 years telling us that everything they say is a lie and everything they do is for their own and their donors benefit.

There is still plenty of stuff the government are saying and doing that I am very critical of. So if you see me agreeing with them on certain matters, that's surely an indicator that I'm not the blinded partisan you seem to want to portray me as?

I take every argument on it's own merit and make up my own mind. That's all any of us can do.

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12 hours ago, alexxxxx said:

AZ vaccine 10% effective against South African variant. 

 

Worth noting that this trial was done at the 4 week interval not the 12. Therefore the results are not really unexpected, it has already been proven the efficacy is lower against all variants at this point. 
 

More data is needed but 10% is probably the lowest efficacy against catching the COVID not stopping the full impacts of the virus.

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8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

@Albert @BIllyD @Bob The Badger @Stive Pesley

NHS England bed occupancy rates:-

2018/19 Q1 87.8%

2018/19 Q2 87.1%

2018/19 Q3 88.0%

2018/19 Q4 89.1%

2019/20 Q1 88.2%

2019/20 Q2 88.0%

2019/20 Q3 89.4%

2019/20 Q4 86.3%

2020/21 Q1 64.3%

2020/21 Q2 77.0%

Thanks, I'm not quite sure what you are showing though ? Are you showing that the percentage beds occupied is less this year against the last, is the KPI that shows they are not under strain ? im not quite sure where Q2 21' comes in for example when we are in Feb ?

Happy to look through the figures is you give us some context behind them ? Maybe a link to the site if you feel we should be doing this ourselves, not saying what you are saying is wrong but at the moment it's just a list of numbers. 

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33 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Brought all about by the same media panic that was informing us that the NHS was on the brink of collapse...

The head of the NHS has said people who deny the existence of COVID-19 are “lying” during a blistering takedown at a Downing Street press conference on Thursday.

NHS Chief Executive Sir Simon Stevens said people who believe COVID-19 is a hoax were responsible for people’s deaths and belittled the work of nurses who were already exhausted and stretched thin.

Answering a question from Channel 4’s Victoria MacDonald Sir Simon said: “Let’s just be completely straight forward about it when people say that it is a lie.

“If you sneak into a hospital in an empty corridor at 9 o’clock at night and film that particular corridor and then stick it up on social media and say this proves the hospitals are empty the whole thing is a hoax.

“You are not only responsible for potentially changing behaviour that will kill people but it is an insult to the nurse coming home from 12 hours in critical care having worked their guts under on the most demanding and trying of circumstances.

“There is nothing more demoralising than having that kind of nonsense spouted when it is most obviously untrue.

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2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

The head of the NHS has said people who deny the existence of COVID-19 are “lying” during a blistering takedown at a Downing Street press conference on Thursday.

NHS Chief Executive Sir Simon Stevens said people who believe COVID-19 is a hoax were responsible for people’s deaths and belittled the work of nurses who were already exhausted and stretched thin.

Answering a question from Channel 4’s Victoria MacDonald Sir Simon said: “Let’s just be completely straight forward about it when people say that it is a lie.

“If you sneak into a hospital in an empty corridor at 9 o’clock at night and film that particular corridor and then stick it up on social media and say this proves the hospitals are empty the whole thing is a hoax.

“You are not only responsible for potentially changing behaviour that will kill people but it is an insult to the nurse coming home from 12 hours in critical care having worked their guts under on the most demanding and trying of circumstances.

“There is nothing more demoralising than having that kind of nonsense spouted when it is most obviously untrue.

I don't agree with people going into hospitals and filming but how can it possibly be a hoax?

Are the people filming, taking people out of the wards, filming an empty room and then putting the patients back in?

Nobody is saying the NHS is not under pressure (as far as I am aware of) I think some people just believe it is far fetched with talk of it being on the brink of collapse.

As another poster said earlier, maybe this is the modern day version of the boy who cried wolf biting the NHS on the arse.

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17 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

Thanks, I'm not quite sure what you are showing though ? Are you showing that the percentage beds occupied is less this year against the last, is the KPI that shows they are not under strain ? im not quite sure where Q2 21' comes in for example when we are in Feb ?

Happy to look through the figures is you give us some context behind them ? Maybe a link to the site if you feel we should be doing this ourselves, not saying what you are saying is wrong but at the moment it's just a list of numbers. 

Yep. 2020/21 Q1 is the start of the epidemic.

Q3 figures should be available in a couple of weeks and maybe at that point I will be made to revise my thoughts.

Data available at the moment though shows that there would have to be an astronomical rise to go back above normal figures.

From memory we were told Covid patients went from 20,000 in the first wave to 35,000 in the second wave.

Thats a rise of 15,000 which accounts for about 12% of NHS England beds.

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41 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

@Albert @BIllyD @Bob The Badger @Stive Pesley

NHS England bed occupancy rates:-

2018/19 Q1 87.8%

2018/19 Q2 87.1%

2018/19 Q3 88.0%

2018/19 Q4 89.1%

2019/20 Q1 88.2%

2019/20 Q2 88.0%

2019/20 Q3 89.4%

2019/20 Q4 86.3%

2020/21 Q1 64.3%

2020/21 Q2 77.0%

Not useful at all IMO

Presumably for the last 2 figures you should really add back in all the patients who would normally be in hospital but were sent out to care homes, to free up capacity which may or may not have been used up. Are nightingale hospital beds included?.

Increase the capacity and the occupancy rate drops. It's not rocket science.

What about all the people who would have been in hospital but for the routine cancellation of non-covid activities? Waiting lists are huge - they should be taken into account, surely?.

Without context, these figures are pretty meaningless.

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2 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Not useful at all IMO

Presumably for the last 2 figures you should really add back in all the patients who would normally be in hospital but were sent out to care homes, to free up capacity which may or may not have been used up. Are nightingale hospital beds included?.

Increase the capacity and the occupancy rate drops. It's not rocket science.

What about all the people who would have been in hospital but for the routine cancellation of non-covid activities? Waiting lists are huge - they should be taken into account, surely?.

Without context, these figures are pretty meaningless.

Beds available for 2020/21 Q2 are 120,000 compared with 128,000 for the corresponding period in the previous year.

There are waiting lists every year, should we add them back in too to previous years?

I'm not saying the situation is great, I am just saying appropriate measures are taken to protect the NHS.

In the context of if the NHS is close to collapse they are very meaningful aren't they?

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15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Beds available for 2020/21 Q2 are 120,000 compared with 128,000 for the corresponding period in the previous year.

There are waiting lists every year, should we add them back in too to previous years?

I'm not saying the situation is great, I am just saying appropriate measures are taken to protect the NHS.

In the context of if the NHS is close to collapse they are very meaningful aren't they?

Not really.

Thanks to the nightingale hospitals & freeing up beds in other ways, it's not a lack of beds but trained staff that has been the biggest issue.

What are the resource demands (staff, equipment etc) for 1000 high dependancy ICU beds with ventilators, as opposed to 1000 general ward beds with people in for planned hip replacement or other standard treatment?

Total bed occupancy could be 20% but cripple the NHS if they are all needing 1:1 care and ventillators.

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20 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Beds available for 2020/21 Q2 are 120,000 compared with 128,000 for the corresponding period in the previous year.

There are waiting lists every year, should we add them back in too to previous years?

I'm not saying the situation is great, I am just saying appropriate measures are taken to protect the NHS.

In the context of if the NHS is close to collapse they are very meaningful aren't they?

 

Do you think that the Covid-19 situation is just a 'bit of a bad patch' for the NHS, or an actual serious pandemic?

 

What are you trying to prove? What's your objective on this forum?

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