Coronavirus

[Norman]

2 minutes ago, Albert said:

...yet, there are free, by definition more democratic countries, that have managed to achieve this without tyranny, and their people are better off for it.

There are tens, if not hundreds, of factors that have gone into this. Don't hide from it. To ignore what has been pointed out to you at length is something..... A ten year old would do? 

[Angry Ram]

36 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

The response has been entirely Boris and his chums. Can't pin it on anyone else. Every failing that has happened in this country is down to their decisions. 

I don't think anyone is blaming the virus on them, but it's entirely down to them what we did in response to it.

I prefer to wait until we understand the reasons behind those decisions, as they were made at the time. I am pretty sure nobody on here is privy to a full understanding of those. The Govt might well have received really bad advice from the so called science experts but again that advice might have been made with the best intentions and  knowledge at the time. It's very complicated and to say it's all the Govs fault, is frankly wrong.

A decision is easy, if it has one criteria, these decisions have many criteria and are very complex and often a balancing decision. Heath v the economy etc. If you just look at health, it's easy. Not so when you have other factors. Most on here are basing criticism on hindsight, that's easy and also ignorant in some cases. At some point there will be an enquiry and lessons learned, people (hopefully) held to account. SAGE for example, is the balance right etc. I get that the Gov probably assigned the players there but has that skewed the decision making process thereafter. I dunno but that's the point really, none of us do at this point. 

The way Gov PPE contracts were awarded, 'Boris and his chums' blah, blah, blah. You may well have a point but that will be proved or disproved in time. 

I have been critical of them over the virus, mainly due to big statements that are easy to make but hard to fulfil in an ever moving scenario. No amount of money would make me change jobs with him, he/they are in a no win situation on every turn.

[Albert]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

There are tens, if not hundreds, of factors that have gone into this. Don't hide from it. To ignore what has been pointed out to you at length is something..... A ten year old would do? 

Which imaginary factors are you noting this time? You've said this before, but when pressed, it's the same tired points which have been shown to not be true.

Also, what a ten year old would actually do is just repeating 'there are loads of reasons', but never actually justify such an assertion. 

[BIllyD]

13 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

The government have failed to get through to the general population the importance of social distancing and wearing masks. I fear the message of how important vaccination is will also fail. 

The population is what it is - if they aren't following the rules the government needs to enforce them more. And maybe lead by example instead of paying lip service to their own rules.

There is only one party which has any role in making decisions. Doesn't matter if you like that party or not. 

That in itself shows you opinion is mainly based upon the dislike of the party. As soon as I got the message to wear a mask, I did it, to blame them for others not doing it, laughable.

We live in a nation where people are taking photos of empty NHS corridors, having signs in the windows saying they laws are not forceable etc etc and in addition to attributing the failing of social distancing to the government, you also think the importance of the vaccination will fail because of the message they are delivering...really ?

[BIllyD]

18 minutes ago, Albert said:

Honestly, Europe's response as a whole has indeed been a failure. Some countries have done better than others, but the lack of locking down at least the borders from outside Europe, and this incessant drive to 'open up' during the summer, is what has lead to all of this. Just because the UK's neighbours made the dame mistakes, however, doesn't make what's happened okay. 

Equally, we know all this 'balancing the economy and keeping spread under control' is absolute complete and total nonsense at this point. The countries that have managed their economies best are the ones that have controlled the pandemic the best. There is no getting around that fact. This, however, at it's core is what has caused all the issues in Europe though, this ideology that it's lives versus the economy.

As macabre as the economy v lives movement has been, it would at least not be so horrific had there actually been an argument to be had there, had there actually been benefits to be had. There weren't, and it was predicted right from the start that it'd be that way. Pandemics are driven by number of cases, and the best way to prevent spread is simply not to have the virus in the first place, otherwise to maintain control the only option you have is enough restrictions to maintain an R number below 1. Unfortunately for this pandemic, the level of restrictions to achieve that for most countries was lockdown level restrictions. That's not fair on a population long term, so hard borders and elimination should have been the plan. 

Countries that have done well against the virus didn't just 'luck out', they followed the health advice. It's no coincidence that places that have successfully dealt with epidemics in recent memory, and had well developed plans, are exactly the countries that have done well. I do wonder how the USA would have done if the Trump administration didn't dismantle their pandemic preparedness schemes, but that'll remain one of histories great 'what ifs'. 

Basically, this argument of 'yeah, but the rest of Europe', is like failing an exam and declaring 'well, others did too'. Awesome, that's the crowd you're placing yourself in. 

I have seen your response, I agreed Europe as a whole has made mistakes, however completely missing the point of the discussion which was around the government being attributed with every failing.

I will say now, that no matter what we did, their would have been a second wave, would it have been on the scale we are seeing now, probably not, but as per the flu in 1918 lockdowns only work when they are in place and given the freedom of travel and different approaches taken by all the EU countries, the R number would never have been below 1.

Lets also not forget we don't like under a dictatorship, which many of the countries that have it under control do, I much rather have my freedom of speech than live under a government that forces you to do something, even if that has resulted in a higher R no.

[BIllyD]

18 minutes ago, Albert said:

...yet, there are free, by definition more democratic countries, that have managed to achieve this without tyranny, and their people are better off for it.

Australia by any chance, you should have said....

[Albert]

6 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

I have seen your response, I agreed Europe as a whole has made mistakes, however completely missing the point of the discussion which was around the government being attributed with every failing.

I will say now, that no matter what we did, their would have been a second wave, would it have been on the scale we are seeing now, probably not, but as per the flu in 1918 lockdowns only work when they are in place and given the freedom of travel and different approaches taken by all the EU countries, the R number would never have been below 1.

Lets also not forget we don't like under a dictatorship, which many of the countries that have it under control do, I much rather have my freedom of speech than live under a government that forces you to do something, even if that has resulted in a higher R no.

Australia is not a dictatorship, nor is New Zealand...

I disagree that a second wave was a guarantee. It was a guarantee from the mindset of 'lives v economy', but as seen in countries where there haven't been second waves, at least not ones of any real scale, it was never a guaranteed thing. 

4 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

Australia by any chance, you should have said....

Yep. 

[G STAR RAM]

40 minutes ago, Norman said:

There are tens, if not hundreds, of factors that have gone into this. Don't hide from it. To ignore what has been pointed out to you at length is something..... A ten year old would do? 

Awaits...

"Its been proven"

"What we know"

or

"I've already shown"

Type response

Place your bets now please...

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, BIllyD said:

That IMO is an opinion based upon a dislike of the party. "Every failing", what does that even mean, so they are to blame for people not social distancing for example. If we look at the majority of every other country in Europe, every one has the same problem, did they all fail ?

They have made bad calls based on hindsight, wrong calls on getting the balance between maintaining the economy and keeping the spread under control, but how can you attribute everything that has failed down to them,  their counter argument I'm sure would be that it would have been a lot worse.

Doesn't matter if you like the party or not. As it happens I don't. But they made all the decisions. They took all the actions and planned the timescales. They built in enough lack of clarity that people thought they could go en masse to the beach, or having massive parties, or protesting Black Lives Matter. Nobody else can say they were involved in the giving of the message to people that was ignored. 

Most disappointing were the huge lags between calls to action and then the action happening. 

The lack of early action was criminal. 

The throwing of care homes "to the wolves" is entirely down to them.

Test and trace throwing billions of pounds down the drain was their call. 

Running down the health service for many years happened on their watch.

Management of PPE is their management. Nobody else's.

I can accept following the science and finding later that the science was flawed. Still, their responsibility their decisions - they should answer for that. Nobody else can be held accountable except the government of the day. I can't see how anyone can see anything differently.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

And worryingly, so many of these decisions are voted through Parliament by Keir and his chums without the slightest opposition.

BSABSVC?

[maxjam]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

There are tens, if not hundreds, of factors that have gone into this. Don't hide from it. To ignore what has been pointed out to you at length is something..... A ten year old would do? 

You are correct, multiple factors play into how individual countries have fared in their response to the pandemic.

The EU for example initially advised against closing borders *link provided earlier in this thread - which allowed covid to get a large foothold in Europe and inevitably set us up for 2nd and 3rd waves.

And in the US The Democrats called Trump racist for stopping flights from China whilst Nancy Pelosi toured San Francisco's Chinatown encouraging people to go;

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pelosi-tweet-chinatown-tourism/

This data from Pew Research shows how multiple factors can play a part in their covid death toll;

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/05/26/coronavirus-death-toll-is-heavily-concentrated-in-democratic-congressional-districts/

Interestingly one of the areas hardest hit by covid are districts 'where residents have higher levels of formal education: 39% of those living in the districts with the highest death rate have a four-year college degree or more, compared with 28% of those living in the districts with the lowest death rate.' 

I would assume that having a better education would lead you to more closely follow the science or medical guidelines regarding your own health - but perhaps the highly divisive political situation and large woke movement in the US has led this apparent disparity?

The only tired and defeated argument is in comparing countries with different populations, political systems, economies, climates, geographical locations, etc as each has their own unique set of problems - some of which are beyond the control of 'those in power' and expecting them to have achieved the same results.

[Albert]

14 minutes ago, maxjam said:

You are correct, multiple factors play into how individual countries have fared in their response to the pandemic.

The EU for example initially advised against closing borders *link provided earlier in this thread - which allowed covid to get a large foothold in Europe and inevitably set us up for 2nd and 3rd waves.

And in the US The Democrats called Trump racist for stopping flights from China whilst Nancy Pelosi toured San Francisco's Chinatown encouraging people to go;

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pelosi-tweet-chinatown-tourism/

The point that Pelosi et al were making at the time is to not target Asian Americans because of the virus. I'm not really sure what point you think you're making by noting that Nancy Pelosi visited Chinatown in San Francisco. 

Equally, it's been a long time since the major driver of the disease was China, and areas that had more direct connections to China actually handled the risks better. Australia, for example, had direct flights from Wuhan, had earlier cases than places like the UK, yet still got on top of things. 

The only thing that's set Europe up for 2nd, 3rd, etc waves is that they failed to control it from there. Advising against border closures early was also part that of that failed response, and has continued to be a sticking point at times. It wasn't something the EU prevented, however. 

14 minutes ago, maxjam said:

This data from Pew Research shows how multiple factors can play a part in their covid death toll;

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/05/26/coronavirus-death-toll-is-heavily-concentrated-in-democratic-congressional-districts/

Interestingly one of the areas hardest hit by covid are districts 'where residents have higher levels of formal education: 39% of those living in the districts with the highest death rate have a four-year college degree or more, compared with 28% of those living in the districts with the lowest death rate.' 

I would assume that having a better education would lead you to more closely follow the science or medical guidelines regarding your own health - but perhaps the highly divisive political situation and large woke movement in the US has led this apparent disparity?

The only tired and defeated argument is in comparing countries with different populations, political systems, economies, climates, geographical locations, etc as each has their own unique set of problems - some of which are beyond the control of 'those in power' and expecting them to have achieved the same results.

The high death rate in educated areas was something seen early in the pandemic in the USA, which is notable given your source from Pew is from May. The trend has changed significantly since that time though. 

Each country has their only unique challenges, but those challenges were never preventing the virus from being controlled. Notably, the very controls that allowed Australia to reach the position they are in now were available to the government in the UK. The fact that the case loads were indeed still coming down when opening up began implies that the tools in use worked. A September lockdown, as was recommended to the government, would have helped greatly, and could have been used as a start to an elimination strategy. 

[maxjam]

1 minute ago, Albert said:

The high death rate in educated areas was something seen early in the pandemic in the USA, which is notable given your source from Pew is from May. The trend has changed significantly since that time though.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if it had - again for political mask wearing reasons;

Trump and his supporters don't tend to bother with masks whereas Biden et al always have.

[BIllyD]

49 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Doesn't matter if you like the party or not. As it happens I don't. But they made all the decisions. They took all the actions and planned the timescales. They built in enough lack of clarity that people thought they could go en masse to the beach, or having massive parties, or protesting Black Lives Matter. Nobody else can say they were involved in the giving of the message to people that was ignored. 

Most disappointing were the huge lags between calls to action and then the action happening. 

The lack of early action was criminal. 

The throwing of care homes "to the wolves" is entirely down to them.

Test and trace throwing billions of pounds down the drain was their call. 

Running down the health service for many years happened on their watch.

Management of PPE is their management. Nobody else's.

I can accept following the science and finding later that the science was flawed. Still, their responsibility their decisions - they should answer for that. Nobody else can be held accountable except the government of the day. I can't see how anyone can see anything differently.

But you are moving the goalposts, are you blaming the government for people passing the virus on when not following the law or not ?
 

Every failing you said is what can be attributed to them...what you are doing is looking at decisions that they have made over the years and using it as a stick to beat them with. Are you saying they should have spent millions on the NHS and ICU wards on the assumption that we may have a pandemic, you seem to be trying to blame them for everything.

No doubt they have made some bad calls, but every failing in an unprecedented situation is why I see it differently.

[maxjam]

 

[GboroRam]

13 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

But you are moving the goalposts, are you blaming the government for people passing the virus on when not following the law or not ?
 

Every failing you said is what can be attributed to them...what you are doing is looking at decisions that they have made over the years and using it as a stick to beat them with. Are you saying they should have spent millions on the NHS and ICU wards on the assumption that we may have a pandemic, you seem to be trying to blame them for everything.

No doubt they have made some bad calls, but every failing in an unprecedented situation is why I see it differently.

I've said you can't blame them for everything. The virus isn't from them. But every decision that has been made, they made. If they made right decisions that's their glory. If they made poor decisions that's their fault. Who else can we blame for the wrong decisions?

If people didn't follow advice, why? What could have been done differently? Why didn't we do it differently, if that would have made a more successful outcome?

I can't see any way to argue their decision making isn't their responsibility. Every decision that has been taken has to live or die at the government's feet. 

[ariotofmyown]

18 minutes ago, maxjam said:

 

Resignation?

[BIllyD]

11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I've said you can't blame them for everything. The virus isn't from them. But every decision that has been made, they made. If they made right decisions that's their glory. If they made poor decisions that's their fault. Who else can we blame for the wrong decisions?

If people didn't follow advice, why? What could have been done differently? Why didn't we do it differently, if that would have made a more successful outcome?

I can't see any way to argue their decision making isn't their responsibility. Every decision that has been taken has to live or die at the government's feet. 

No you said and I quote "Every failing that has happened in this country is down to their decisions."

My opinion is that this is not correct, for reasons as previously stated. Poor decisions yes blame them for that, things that have gone wrong that are out of their control, made on a risk based approach for example, or people not following the rules, no you can't. 

 

[maxjam]

15 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I can't see any way to argue their decision making isn't their responsibility. Every decision that has been taken has to live or die at the government's feet. 

How were the Government responsible for the BLM riots?  Political sensitivities saw the police retreat rather than break them up.

Likewise, what about the thousands of people packed onto beaches in the summer or Oxford Street before Christmas etc. 

We police by consent in this country there is literally nothing the Police (and therefore the Government) could do to break up thousands upon thousands of people massed together other than keep us in total lockdown for the best part of a year - their alternative was the tier system and social distancing but people simply abused that.

The more liberal the democracy and the more factions we have in society, the higher some countries death tolls.  You can blame the Government for a lot of things but their job has not been made easy by the society we live in.

[GboroRam]

1 minute ago, BIllyD said:

No you said and I quote "Every failing that has happened in this country is down to their decisions."

My opinion is that this is not correct, for reasons as previously stated. Poor decisions yes blame them for that, things that have gone wrong that are out of their control, made on a risk based approach for example, or people not following the rules, no you can't. 

 

"The response has been entirely Boris and his chums. Can't pin it on anyone else. Every failing that has happened in this country is down to their decisions."

I thought it was obvious from the context but I will clarify, they make the decisions, they have to stand by them. If they make bad decisions, they have to own them. The state of the country is entirely on them. If people aren't listening, they aren't getting the message across correctly. I have previously said that I don't blame the government for everything, but I do blame them for the response.