Coronavirus

[Archied]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

Utterly blinkered. 

Really ??,you seem to be typing ok

[ramit]

Alright sheep, lets put our health and that of our kids in the hands of these fine folk

BTW the head of the company chief exec has just sold 62% of his shares.

From 2009:

"WASHINGTON – American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together "Pfizer") have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products, the Justice Department announced today."

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history

 

[Albert]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

Really ,,,, looks more the other way round ?, good reliable consistent information has been in very short supply since the start of all this,, I do wonder if I lived somewhere like Germany or Sweden I might have a different view but truth is we are inundated with U.K. and USA shambles and chaos 

There's plenty of reliable information out there though. The issue is that you just ignore it mixing it with your misunderstandings and ideology, rather than just going with the information we have. 

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I remember when Germany was being held up as the gold standard.

Amazing that they no longer get a mention. 

Just looking at the stats. 

Of the countries that have had the most cases, currently out of the top 13, we have the lowest amount of patients in a critical state.

Honestly, I don't think Germany has done that good a job through this all. They have done comparatively well in Europe, but Europe's overall response has been poor. This is likely the reason they rarely get a mention. 

As to most cases, you have to focus on a few factors here, including how many of those cases are current and recent, as well as per capita statistics, as that's really the measure of how well a country is doing. 

As to number of critical cases, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with that. The point with cases is growth, and what things will be like in two weeks. You should also be considering figures per capita, rather than just the raw figures.  

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Will find them out and link them.

Breakdown by age and also any underlying health issues.

Cheers mate, I look forward to it. 

[Albert]

3 minutes ago, ramit said:

Alright sheep, lets put our health and that of our kids in the hands of these fine folk

BTW the head of the company chief exec has just sold 62% of his shares.

From 2009:

"WASHINGTON – American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together "Pfizer") have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products, the Justice Department announced today."

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history

 

Not really sure what point you're trying to make. If anything, the fact that the company got caught out on this marketing practice and prosecuted is a good sign of the systems working as intended to prevent harm to patients. 

Also, if you're going to go down the antivaxer route, might as well just start calling for an eternal lockdown. This isn't going to end for a long time without one. 

[G STAR RAM]

15 minutes ago, Albert said:

Cheers mate, I look forward to it. 

I think the table is downloadable from the following link:-

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/adhocs/12376averageageofdeathmedianandmeanofpersonswhosedeathwasduetocovid19orinvolvedcovid19bysexdeathsregistereduptoweekending2october2020englandandwales

Not certain as I'm on my phone.

From memory, the table showed that 21 people under 19 had died, of which 17 had underlying health issues. 

If it's not the right table I will keep digging, will be in my search history somewhere.

[ramit]

2 minutes ago, Albert said:

Not really sure what point you're trying to make. If anything, the fact that the company got caught out on this marketing practice and prosecuted is a good sign of the systems working as intended to prevent harm to patients. 

Also, if you're going to go down the antivaxer route, might as well just start calling for an eternal lockdown. This isn't going to end for a long time without one. 

It took 4 years for the system to work as intended.  In another 4 years there will be another settlement?

You take that chance if you want to, i know what i will do.  i don't trust authorities when they all agree on something, or actually at any time and IMO anyone who does is a foolish tool.  Call me an antivaxer, a lunatic, or whatever hell you want, but i think for myself and i alone am responsible for my health and that of my family.

[Angry Ram]

3 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I went to the shops today and thought the same thing. Walked into the town to see if a coffee shop was perhaps doing takeaways from a hatch perhaps. All the coffee shops were open and plenty of other shops were open too. This is nothing like the previous lockdown. 

Regardless if you think a lockdown is needed or not, it's clearly not happening. Some people will be lonely as they are following the rules and meeting just 1 other person, but I can be indoors with 3 customer and 3 members of staff waiting for a coffee.

The local pound shop to us is open because he sells biscuits and sweets. 

[angieram]

20 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

The local pound shop to us is open because he sells biscuits and sweets. 

Max Spiellman in Ripley is open because it takes in dry cleaning.

[G STAR RAM]

Interesting take.

Not had any time to research the guy, his credentials or what he is sayi

[Albert]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I think the table is downloadable from the following link:-

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/adhocs/12376averageageofdeathmedianandmeanofpersonswhosedeathwasduetocovid19orinvolvedcovid19bysexdeathsregistereduptoweekending2october2020englandandwales

Not certain as I'm on my phone.

From memory, the table showed that 21 people under 19 had died, of which 17 had underlying health issues. 

If it's not the right table I will keep digging, will be in my search history somewhere.

That's just a table of the mean and median. 

1 hour ago, ramit said:

It took 4 years for the system to work as intended.  In another 4 years there will be another settlement?

You take that chance if you want to, i know what i will do.  i don't trust authorities when they all agree on something, or actually at any time and IMO anyone who does is a foolish tool.  Call me an antivaxer, a lunatic, or whatever hell you want, but i think for myself and i alone am responsible for my health and that of my family.

Well, on one hand we have a virus that is known to cause issues even for people who are asymptomatic, against vaccines, which are pretty universally safe, with rates of severe reactions around the rate of 1 in one million or less. 

Equally, lengthening the pandemic for some selfish antivax fantasy of control is just ruining more lives. 

50 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Interesting take.

Not had any time to research the guy, his credentials or what he is sayi

What in the hell is this video? 

Residual immunity to Covid from SARS, MERS? There was only ~8000 confirmed cases of SARS, and ~2500 cases of MERS. That is not going to contribute at all to immunity, even if they share similar immune responses, as it would represent a comically small fraction of the population, even assuming that a large number of cases were missed (which is extremely unlikely given that they were indeed controlled before they became a pandemic). 

Also, why is a guy with an undergraduate degree in biochemical engineering being interviewed as an expert here? The guy is clearly a quack, peddling the 'dying with Covid, not of Covid' fallacy. As discussed on here previously, you cannot explain these death figures in that way, it just doesn't work. It doesn't explain the exponential increase in deaths, nor does it explain why there are so many. I'll just quote my last post of this nonsense:

On 12/11/2020 at 19:01, Albert said:

Honestly, it's is just such a weak point that the very idea of people bringing it up is quite frankly laughable. 

The definition the UK is running with is death within 28 days of a positive test. We can actually use that and the standard death rate to estimate how many people we expect to 'die with Covid', and compare that to the figure. 

In the UK, ~600,000 people die per year, with a population of 67 million, or around about 0.8% of the population per year, or about 0.07% of the population per 28 days. That is, given a set of people, you expect 0.07% of them to die over that period of 28 days. 

There have been 1.26 million people who have tested positive for Covid-19 in the UK, hence we would expect 865 people from this set out die within 28 days of that diagnosis. Over 50,000 have died, however. That 865 people would make up only 1.7% of those deaths. 

Now, you can argue until you're blue in the face that this may or may not be a significant fraction, but the thing is, not all people who die from Covid-19 die within 28 days. If I recall right, the 99%ile for time to death is around 36 days, ie 1% of people who are killed by the disease take longer than 36 days from onset to die. That 28 days figure is an underestimate, and likely by more than the addition of people who 'died with Covid'. 

To reiterate, this 'dying with Covid' fallacy just isn't capable of explaining away what we're seeing at all. 

Beyond that, he's just talking nonsense. When Covid gets bad, it's well established that there are indeed more deaths in the home for a number of reasons. For one, people aren't getting as much treatment at the hospital, and once Covid gets bad, it can kill quite quickly. Covid also attacks the heart, but that's a slightly different point. 

In essence, they're interviewing someone who is not an expert, which is just going for gishgallop as their argument. 

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, Albert said:

That's just a table of the mean and median. 

Well, on one hand we have a virus that is known to cause issues even for people who are asymptomatic, against vaccines, which are pretty universally safe, with rates of severe reactions around the rate of 1 in one million or less. 

Equally, lengthening the pandemic for some selfish antivax fantasy of control is just ruining more lives. 

What in the hell is this video? 

Residual immunity to Covid from SARS, MERS? There was only ~8000 confirmed cases of SARS, and ~2500 cases of MERS. That is not going to contribute at all to immunity, even if they share similar immune responses, as it would represent a comically small fraction of the population, even assuming that a large number of cases were missed (which is extremely unlikely given that they were indeed controlled before they became a pandemic). 

Also, why is a guy with an undergraduate degree in biochemical engineering being interviewed as an expert here? The guy is clearly a quack, peddling the 'dying with Covid, not of Covid' fallacy. As discussed on here previously, you cannot explain these death figures in that way, it just doesn't work. It doesn't explain the exponential increase in deaths, nor does it explain why there are so many. I'll just quote my last post of this nonsense:

To reiterate, this 'dying with Covid' fallacy just isn't capable of explaining away what we're seeing at all. 

Beyond that, he's just talking nonsense. When Covid gets bad, it's well established that there are indeed more deaths in the home for a number of reasons. For one, people aren't getting as much treatment at the hospital, and once Covid gets bad, it can kill quite quickly. Covid also attacks the heart, but that's a slightly different point. 

In essence, they're interviewing someone who is not an expert, which is just going for gishgallop as their argument. 

Is there not another tab giving the breakdown of the figures? Cant get Excel spreadsheets to work on my phone for some reason.

Just out of interest what are your qualifications in relation to Covid or the medical profession?

[jimmyp]

Covid-19: Labour calls for law to stop anti-vaccination fake news online

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54947661

 

Think after some of the conversations on here over the past week this is probably needed. 

 

[ramit]

The Swine Flu vaccine

"Normally vaccines undergo testing to make sure they are safe, and vaccination has been proven to save millions of lives across the globe. But Pandemrix was different. It had not gone through the normal process and was fast-tracked without the usual clinical trials."

"They have been forced to take legal action, along with almost a hundred other sufferers, to force the company and the government to accept the consequences of the rushed vaccination programme eight years ago. In contrast to the UK, European countries have already compensated people whose narcolepsy was linked to the swine flu vaccine."

https://www.buzzfeed.com/shaunlintern/these-nhs-staff-were-told-the-swine-flu-vaccine-was-safe

[Albert]

15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Is there not another tab giving the breakdown of the figures? Cant get Excel spreadsheets to work on my phone for some reason.

Just out of interest what are your qualifications in relation to Covid or the medical profession?

I'm not a medical professional. The only work I've done around epidemiology was helping out with finding issues in the implementation of a simulation of a model for a quite frankly simple system. I do not pretend to be qualified in this field. 

3 minutes ago, ramit said:

What in the world are you blathering about?  Selfish am i?  Troll are you.

Antivaxers will extend this pandemic far longer than it needs to go, and it will cost not just livelihoods, but lives. 

[Albert]

7 minutes ago, ramit said:

The Swine Flu vaccine

"Normally vaccines undergo testing to make sure they are safe, and vaccination has been proven to save millions of lives across the globe. But Pandemrix was different. It had not gone through the normal process and was fast-tracked without the usual clinical trials."

"They have been forced to take legal action, along with almost a hundred other sufferers, to force the company and the government to accept the consequences of the rushed vaccination programme eight years ago. In contrast to the UK, European countries have already compensated people whose narcolepsy was linked to the swine flu vaccine."

https://www.buzzfeed.com/shaunlintern/these-nhs-staff-were-told-the-swine-flu-vaccine-was-safe

There's a couple of points to make here:

1. The vaccines for Covid-19 are going through the usual processes, hence the time they are taking, no shortcuts are going on here. 

2. More recent studies have no evidence of this type of vaccine causing narcolepsy in the majority of countries studied. 

It is worth noting there is some link with the time period there was data from Sweden suggesting an increase in the rate of narcolepsy in teenagers, with 3.6 additional cases per 100,000, but these results were not seen elsewhere, nor in adults. There has been some evidence of H1N1 infections being linked to narcolepsy elsewhere, but this was not linked to vaccination. The suggestion out of studies that H1N1 was capable of causing narcolepsy (at very low rates) and that a vaccine could potentially do this due to its adjuvants. 

What this does highlight is two things:

1. The value of the process, which is going on with the Covid-19 vaccines. 

2. Even in this case, the rate of this complication is at most very rare, and was one demonstrated in one region. 

[Archied]

13 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I remember when Germany was being held up as the gold standard.

Amazing that they no longer get a mention. 

Just looking at the stats. 

Of the countries that have had the most cases, currently out of the top 13, we have the lowest amount of patients in a critical state.

 

I think some may have believed I was saying those two countries had better figures and were leading the way when in fact the point I was making was perhaps if I lived elsewhere I may have been receiving a more coherent message that may give me a different point of view and trust in what I’m being told , perhaps not but I know the message, figures and policies in this country have been a shambles from start to finish

[Albert]

19 minutes ago, Archied said:

No he hasn’t , that’s all in the head of someone who talks as if he is an expert , concedes he is not but jumps on anybody’s qualifications to speak if they don’t totally accept the line you have chosen to accept and doggedly algorythmically push on here and probably plenty other sites and platforms,

On the 'jumping on qualifications' comment, I'm assuming you mean the video from before. My point was that I wasn't sure why they'd have picked someone who isn't qualified in the field for such an interview. They are not an expert, nor am I. 

The bigger point with that interview though is that their central claims can be shown to be incorrect in seconds, as was done. 

19 minutes ago, Archied said:

I will not be choosing to have the vaccine at this point whilst I’m am happy for anyone who chooses to have it to do so and will not discourage them ?

It's sad that you'd make a choice that will only extend lockdown and suffering. I guess if you don't care about those things though. 

[Albert]

14 minutes ago, Archied said:

I think some may have believed I was saying those two countries had better figures and were leading the way when in fact the point I was making was perhaps if I lived elsewhere I may have been receiving a more coherent message that may give me a different point of view and trust in what I’m being told , perhaps not but I know the message, figures and policies in this country have been a shambles from start to finish

Something we can all agree on. 

[Archied]

15 minutes ago, Albert said:

 

It's sad that you'd make a choice that will only extend lockdown and suffering. I guess if you don't care about those things though. 

Never been one to respond to coercion, I care very much about lockdowns and the misery they are causing ,I care very much about them being used as a tool to coerce 

[Albert]

13 minutes ago, Archied said:

Never been one to respond to coercion, I care very much about lockdowns and the misery they are causing ,I care very much about them being used as a tool to coerce 

If you cared, you'd take the one in millions risk associated with vaccines to end this sooner. You're more likely to get hurt on the way to the doctor to get the vaccine than from the vaccine itself. It's not a tool to coerce, it's just the facts of the case. If you're not even willing to take that risk to end the lockdowns, and bring back some level of normality, then I don't believe for a second you actually care about what people are going through.