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1 minute ago, Albert said:

You noted that the different culture could play a role, as well as other previously discussed factors, and used that to dismiss any and all comparison. This inherently implies what I said above.

No it doesn't.  Why does one have to be superior?  Can't they just be different.

 

1 minute ago, Albert said:

The issue is that the peak of their population are older people of working age, and culturally going to work on crowded public transport is the norm. The fact that this has been adjusted effectively to deal with a pandemic speaks volumes of the difference in response. When you're going on about 'well, the young people are less likely to go out', you know you're point is getting flimsy. 

Equally, if having more young people is the point, how do you explain Vietnam, or places like Australia and New Zealand? These factors all play together, but your methods seem to be to just pick them one by one to tackle in an ad hoc manner. 

We've been around the block more than once debating this and never get any further forwards.

You can't compare the UKs response to the countries you regularly bring up in your argument.  It is not down to just the economy, or just the population, or just the culture, etc.  Multiple factors interweave enabling some countries to respond better than others.

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2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

No it doesn't.  Why does one have to be superior?  Can't they just be different.

I did say 'superior in this situation', which is what you're implying. That is, unless you're suggesting that the virus spreading out of control is equally favourable an outcome. 

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

We've been around the block more than once debating this and never get any further forwards.

You can't compare the UKs response to the countries you regularly bring up in your argument.  It is not down to just the economy, or just the population, or just the culture, etc.  Multiple factors interweave enabling some countries to respond better than others.

This point could be valid if the countries that were successful shared those characteristics, but they simply don't. They are very different, and opposite sides of the spectrum in many respects. All also achieved this successful in different ways, tailored to their own circumstances. As discussed, there is no magic bullet, but rather, hard work and a clear plan from the start.

As we've noted, the only real connection between all the countries we've discussed is the region of the World they happen to be in, the only tangible benefit gained there was previous experience with dangerous epidemics. That would, however, only suggest that they were better organised, and responded better in the first place. This is, however, the entire point. 

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28 minutes ago, maxjam said:

You can't compare the UKs response to the countries you regularly bring up in your argument.  It is not down to just the economy, or just the population, or just the culture, etc.  Multiple factors interweave enabling some countries to respond better than others.

Largely agree with this, hence I've not been that interested in the debate

However - I'd say that perhaps the point of antagonism lies in the fact that - continually finding reasons as to why you can't compare our terrible attempts at managing the situation to countries that have done a better job than us - it might seem to some that you are fighting the corner of the muppets in charge here? (ie "it's not Boris's fault we've done a bad job - we've got a hgher birthrate than Korea! How is he meant to deal with THAT?")

I don't think  you are - pretty sure you've been critical of some of their action on Covid elsewhere in the thread, but just an observation that one of our "major factors" is having an inept and corrupt government

Meanwhile, not content with destroying the union, it looks like the government strategy is now to push the North of England to cede 😞

 

Edited by SchtivePesley
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19 minutes ago, Albert said:

This point could be valid if the countries that were successful shared those characteristics, but they simply don't. They are very different, and opposite sides of the spectrum in many respects. All also achieved this successful in different ways, tailored to their own circumstances. As discussed, there is no magic bullet, but rather, hard work and a clear plan from the start.

The point is valid for reasons I have suggested.

 

21 minutes ago, Albert said:

 

As we've noted, the only real connection between all the countries we've discussed is the region of the World they happen to be in, the only tangible benefit gained there was previous experience with dangerous epidemics. That would, however, only suggest that they were better organised, and responded better in the first place. This is, however, the entire point. 

No, as discussed, that is only one of a number of reasons.

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4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Largely agree with this, hence I've not been that interested in the debate

However - I'd say that perhaps the point of antagonism lies in the fact that - continually finding reasons as to why you can't compare our terrible attempts at managing the situation to countries that have done a better job than us - it might seem to some that you are fighting the corner of the muppets in charge here? (ie "it's not Boris's fault we've done a bad job - we've got a hgher birthrate than Korea! How is he meant to deal with THAT?")

I don't think  you are - pretty sure you've been critical of some of their action on Covid elsewhere in the thread, but just an observation that one of our "major factors" is having an inept and corrupt government

Meanwhile, not content with destroying the union, it looks like the government strategy is now to push the North of England to cede 😞

Yup, I've been critical of the Tories - and I would have been critical of Labour if they had been in power. 

With hindsight the first thing they should have done was form a cross party group and taken advice from a broad selection of doctors, economists and sociologists etc.  Even so, I still think that certain countries, the UK being one, were always going to have a tougher time than others for a multitude of reasons - some of which we've touched upon in here, others better left to the old politics thread.

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5 minutes ago, maxjam said:

The point is valid for reasons I have suggested.

So, it's valid because you say it is, despite the basis of your point not being solid in any respect. 

5 minutes ago, maxjam said:

No, as discussed, that is only one of a number of reasons.

What are these then? What characteristics do you think they all share? 

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1 minute ago, Albert said:

So, it's valid because you say it is, despite the basis of your point not being solid in any respect. 

What are these then? What characteristics do you think they all share? 

I don't think countries share all the same characteristics, they all have their own unique circumstances that feed into how well they were equipped to respond.  You quite often bring Vietnam into the argument - you're comparing a one party socialist/communist regime to the more freedom loving UK there for starters.

I've talked briefly about some of my reasoning in multiple posts, you repeating they are 'tired, defeated or moot points' does not change the fact that they are valid points - and I have often linked articles to back up my reasoning.  I'm not going over it again.

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3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I don't think countries share all the same characteristics, they all have their own unique circumstances that feed into how well they were equipped to respond.  You quite often bring Vietnam into the argument - you're comparing a one party socialist/communist regime to the more freedom loving UK there for starters.

...and there you go again. Rather than taking each as a whole, and discussing why you'd have such different countries all being successful, you just continue with ad hoc discussion of individual points for ones at random. 

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I've talked briefly about some of my reasoning in multiple posts, you repeating they are 'tired, defeated or moot points' does not change the fact that they are valid points - and I have often linked articles to back up my reasoning.  I'm not going over it again.

They're not 'valid points' though, they're just ad hoc musings, never amounts to anything approaching a real article. 

As to articles you've linked, I've discussed them, but you always drop them straight afterwards with no further discussion. This suggests you're using them to seed the idea that your arguments have backing, but rarely are the sources actually agreeing with your point, and when they are, they're usually not a valid source in the first place. You're basically just doing a drop and run with links. 

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2 minutes ago, Albert said:

...and there you go again. Rather than taking each as a whole, and discussing why you'd have such different countries all being successful, you just continue with ad hoc discussion of individual points for ones at random. 

They're not 'valid points' though, they're just ad hoc musings, never amounts to anything approaching a real article. 

As to articles you've linked, I've discussed them, but you always drop them straight afterwards with no further discussion. This suggests you're using them to seed the idea that your arguments have backing, but rarely are the sources actually agreeing with your point, and when they are, they're usually not a valid source in the first place. You're basically just doing a drop and run with links. 

I try not to write my opinion as fact. 

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26,000 extra deaths between March and September in private homes recorded.

3% of which were Covid. 

Obviously that's a redistribution away from hospitals. Worrying that people's life may have ended early, or the right end of life care was missed for so many. 

Covid is responsible for much more than the headline death toll, it seems. 

Edited by Norman
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1 hour ago, Albert said:

...and there you go again. Rather than taking each as a whole, and discussing why you'd have such different countries all being successful, you just continue with ad hoc discussion of individual points for ones at random.

I'm not going to forensically dissect why some countries are better placed than others to cope with pandemics - other than you, no one cares.  I typically make broad points in a short paragraph or two then post a link highlighting an issue to back up my point.

 

1 hour ago, Albert said:

They're not 'valid points' though, they're just ad hoc musings, never amounts to anything approaching a real article.

As to articles you've linked, I've discussed them, but you always drop them straight afterwards with no further discussion. This suggests you're using them to seed the idea that your arguments have backing, but rarely are the sources actually agreeing with your point, and when they are, they're usually not a valid source in the first place. You're basically just doing a drop and run with links. 

In your opinion. 

I would also add that we could keep discussions going long after they had outlived their usefulness in the now defunct politics thread, this despite very strong and at times heated differences of opinion - no one ever slammed the door in anothers face by repeatedly dismissing their argument as moot. 

I am not dropping links and running, I have taken a broad topic and used one small bit of it to highlight my argument - several times in some cases to broaden my 'defence'.  From what I can gather though, you simply refuse to admit there is any validity to my arguments and routinely dismiss them as tired, defeated and moot. 

At first I considered that you were getting under my skin for some reason and tried to back out of arguments, but watching this thread develop have noted that 4 or 5 others are now shying away from engaging with you.  I understand that you have strong belief in your argument but the need to 'win', have the last word and outright dismiss others opinions about a pandemic that the world is still responding to will leave you arguing with yourself.

Now forgive me if I back out of this thread again for a bit but you and I are running around in circles and its probably strayed far enough from its original intentions.

Edited by maxjam
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3 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

Largely agree with this, hence I've not been that interested in the debate

However - I'd say that perhaps the point of antagonism lies in the fact that - continually finding reasons as to why you can't compare our terrible attempts at managing the situation to countries that have done a better job than us - it might seem to some that you are fighting the corner of the muppets in charge here? (ie "it's not Boris's fault we've done a bad job - we've got a hgher birthrate than Korea! How is he meant to deal with THAT?")

I don't think  you are - pretty sure you've been critical of some of their action on Covid elsewhere in the thread, but just an observation that one of our "major factors" is having an inept and corrupt government

Meanwhile, not content with destroying the union, it looks like the government strategy is now to push the North of England to cede 😞

 

Him not having at a number of kids by different women may have helped.😊

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Well this is fun - just had a text from the school to say that they've had a positive test in Year 2

My lad is in Year 6, so it "doesn't affect him" - except that he is in a year 6 bubble with the sister of a Year 2 child who is now having to isolate...

That is, isolating at home with her sister, who isnt isolating, and they might both be infected and asymptomatic so far...

I think I'm starting to work out why this thing keeps spreading!

 

Edited by SchtivePesley
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15 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Well this is fun - just had a text from the school to say that they've had a positive test in Year 2

My lad is in Year 6, so it "doesn't affect him" - except that he is in a year 6 bubble with the sister of a Year 2 child who is now having to isolate...

That is, isolating at home with her sister, who isnt isolating, and they might both be infected and asymptomatic so far...

I think I'm starting to work out why this thing keeps spreading!

 

Hold on, your lad should only have to isolate if you sister gets any symptoms. That's the Track and Trace Rules....Only your daughter needs to isolate (silly in itself) so I suggest you send your lad to school, you and your wife go to work and let the 6 year run riot around the house all day. 🤣

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19 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Hold on, your lad should only have to isolate if you sister gets any symptoms. That's the Track and Trace Rules....Only your daughter needs to isolate (silly in itself) so I suggest you send your lad to school, you and your wife go to work and let the 6 year run riot around the house all day. 🤣

It's not my daughter. It's the sister of the isolating pupil, who is in the same class as my lad

Confusing I know, but you have still essentially grasped the daftness of the current rules

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Since March both myself and my wife have pretty much self isolated, wore face masks tried to social distance as much as possible and reduced interaction between friends and family to pretty much Zero.

other than working  when able and a weekly shop we haven't felt able or been allowed due to restrictions too visit our children or grandchildren and our elderly parents, all who live in various parts of the country.This  has presented a scenario of no where to go, no one to see and nothing to do( especially now the weather is changing and nights are drawing in). Both myself and wife whilst healthy ( mid fifties) both have health concerns ,myself diabetic and wife chest problems so are at risk of Covid.

We now feel that the government need to allow business to reopen get the country running again whilst incorporating social distancing,the wearing of masks and any other precautions felt necessary ,this elivating much unnecessary hardship to many businesses,assisting mental health issues and getting the vast number of people  back to some form of normality.

In doing this the government could then concentrate on assisting the more vulnerable(20% of poulation ?) requiring to shield both financially and socially . The cost of supporting and assisting the vulnerable rather than subsidising a lockdown for the majority whilst businesses continue to decline to levels of poor recovery. We are both starting to feel down ,phycologically mentally fed up with the present situation with very little to look forward too ,so feel for those that have been more effected by this pandemic. The country now needs to start moving forward and as much of a hash this government have made of things I don't believe any other party would have done any better or made any less blunders.

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6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It's not my daughter. It's the sister of the isolating pupil, who is in the same class as my lad

Confusing I know, but you have still essentially grasped the daftness of the current rules

how far do you take it though ?

if I go to the barbers and he tests postive I will have to self isolate but my wife wont.

Should she?, what if I called at the pub on the way home,  or 5 pubs, does everyone I came into significant contact with self isolate too?  what about everyone on  the bus i caught? what about the contacts of all those people I came into contact with,  should they self isolate ? and what about their contacts ?

I guess ideally yes, practically not so simple.

 

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28 minutes ago, ram1964 said:

Since March both myself and my wife have pretty much self isolated, wore face masks tried to social distance as much as possible and reduced interaction between friends and family to pretty much Zero.

other than working  when able and a weekly shop we haven't felt able or been allowed due to restrictions too visit our children or grandchildren and our elderly parents, all who live in various parts of the country.This  has presented a scenario of no where to go, no one to see and nothing to do( especially now the weather is changing and nights are drawing in). Both myself and wife whilst healthy ( mid fifties) both have health concerns ,myself diabetic and wife chest problems so are at risk of Covid.

We now feel that the government need to allow business to reopen get the country running again whilst incorporating social distancing,the wearing of masks and any other precautions felt necessary ,this elivating much unnecessary hardship to many businesses,assisting mental health issues and getting the vast number of people  back to some form of normality.

In doing this the government could then concentrate on assisting the more vulnerable(20% of poulation ?) requiring to shield both financially and socially . The cost of supporting and assisting the vulnerable rather than subsidising a lockdown for the majority whilst businesses continue to decline to levels of poor recovery. We are both starting to feel down ,phycologically mentally fed up with the present situation with very little to look forward too ,so feel for those that have been more effected by this pandemic. The country now needs to start moving forward and as much of a hash this government have made of things I don't believe any other party would have done any better or made any less blunders.

A good well thought out post.

As someone who had to shield I would be open to isolating for the good of the country,  but its easy for me to say as can work at home. 

Your post does demonstrate how different opinions are on the topic, many on here want to return to normal immediately, others don't feel the current restrictions go far enough. 

 

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1 hour ago, ram1964 said:

Since March both myself and my wife have pretty much self isolated, wore face masks tried to social distance as much as possible and reduced interaction between friends and family to pretty much Zero.

other than working  when able and a weekly shop we haven't felt able or been allowed due to restrictions too visit our children or grandchildren and our elderly parents, all who live in various parts of the country.This  has presented a scenario of no where to go, no one to see and nothing to do( especially now the weather is changing and nights are drawing in). Both myself and wife whilst healthy ( mid fifties) both have health concerns ,myself diabetic and wife chest problems so are at risk of Covid.

We now feel that the government need to allow business to reopen get the country running again whilst incorporating social distancing,the wearing of masks and any other precautions felt necessary ,this elivating much unnecessary hardship to many businesses,assisting mental health issues and getting the vast number of people  back to some form of normality.

In doing this the government could then concentrate on assisting the more vulnerable(20% of poulation ?) requiring to shield both financially and socially . The cost of supporting and assisting the vulnerable rather than subsidising a lockdown for the majority whilst businesses continue to decline to levels of poor recovery. We are both starting to feel down ,phycologically mentally fed up with the present situation with very little to look forward too ,so feel for those that have been more effected by this pandemic. The country now needs to start moving forward and as much of a hash this government have made of things I don't believe any other party would have done any better or made any less blunders.

Great post and I'd like to see anyones arguments against this.

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