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Confronting Holocaust denial


RamNut

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42 minutes ago, Van Cone De Head said:

Didn’t know anything about it till I was 16,went to Hamburg with my mum and Dad for a holiday which was based around my Dad meeting  his fathers family.

It was a pretty interesting and unusual trip and emotional for my Dad.

https://www.ushmm.org/
 

This is the site I use most to get info.
 

I had to laugh when I found out I had a great uncle Adolf(really)and he got away.

 

Was he living in Argentina

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What I still fail to understand is why Jews had / have such a stigma attached to them in any case. It was a standard playground insult in the 1960’s if someone was being mean “don’t be a yid, lend me your whatever” I had a Jewish friend, so this kind of disturbed me in a way that you can’t express or understand when your are 9 

I guess It stemmed from historic  misplaced jealousy and maybe Christian fundamentalism. Jews were inevitably in the financial business because the only assets they could have in the mediaeval world had to be portable in case there was a purge. so if you needed a loan it was probably a Jew who had ready cash/jewels/portable surety. .. but how does this translate to the Holocaust ? . Frightening .. and why I so despise mob culture, social media ranting, fake news, loud mouthed declarers of a so called truth. 

There are businessmen and power brokers in every field. I know and have known many Jews and they are exactly and precisely the same as everyone else .. except maybe they have an excess of self deprecating good humour. 

I read somewhere that the unfair terms of the treaty of Versailles bred Hitler. An impoverished nation punished after the first war needed someone to blame. When I hear Trump ranting about Mexicans or the left ranting about Bankers .. it is demonising of a group .. That is how it all starts.... Give the dissatisfied masses something to focus their hate on. Why are some so stupid and gullible ? how do they get away with it ? And keep getting away with it ! 
 

ramble over 
 


 

 

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24 minutes ago, jono said:

What I still fail to understand is why Jews had / have such a stigma attached to them in any case. It was a standard playground insult in the 1960’s if someone was being mean “don’t be a yid, lend me your whatever” I had a Jewish friend, so this kind of disturbed me in a way that you can’t express or understand when your are 9 

I guess It stemmed from historic  misplaced jealousy and maybe Christian fundamentalism. Jews were inevitably in the financial business because the only assets they could have in the mediaeval world had to be portable in case there was a purge. so if you needed a loan it was probably a Jew who had ready cash/jewels/portable surety. .. but how does this translate to the Holocaust ? . Frightening .. and why I so despise mob culture, social media ranting, fake news, loud mouthed declarers of a so called truth. 

There are businessmen and power brokers in every field. I know and have known many Jews and they are exactly and precisely the same as everyone else .. except maybe they have an excess of self deprecating good humour. 

I read somewhere that the unfair terms of the treaty of Versailles bred Hitler. An impoverished nation punished after the first war needed someone to blame. When I hear Trump ranting about Mexicans or the left ranting about Bankers .. it is demonising of a group .. That is how it all starts.... Give the dissatisfied masses something to focus their hate on. Why are some so stupid and gullible ? how do they get away with it ? And keep getting away with it ! 
 

ramble over 
 


 

 

Indeed yes, the capitulation of Germany at the end of WW1 was blamed on "the enemy within" which in Hitlers mind meant Jews, Communists and anyone weak-minded enough to be considered "defeatist".

Those years essentially developed  his personal antisemitism, but it could have remained personal fringe ravings.

What is the true Black Swan event is that Nazi'ism COULD have remained a lunatic fringe party had there not been a banking crisis in the early 1930's. 2 of the 4 "high street" german banks failed - and were not state bailed out - so they worsened an economic recession into the Great Depression. One of these banks - Danatbank - had a Jewish head.

So Hitler was able to build a narrative that Jewish bankers were impoverishing German businessmen. And people believed him and that narrative.

He was a truly evil man but it could an extreme combination of unlikely events to give him the means.

We should be careful to learn from history as we have had arguably a Black Swan economic event of our own......let us fervently hope that nothing goes so badly wrong we start looking for people to blame...... 

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31 minutes ago, jono said:

What I still fail to understand is why Jews had / have such a stigma attached to them in any case.

For many Christians the Jews were guilty of deicide. For a genuinely religious person, that's naturally a serious allegation and it's a 'crime' that followed the Jewish people down through the centuries.  Absurd when you think about it, but it was definitely a factor historically.

Also Jewish populations, within whatever country they were living in, tended not to get caught up in any local nationalistic fervour that was sweeping through wherever it was.  For some flag-waving hyper nationalists that led them to suspect the Jewish communities of being disloyal or even plotting against the state. 

Those are two possible reasons beyond what you've already mention.  Neither of them remotely justifiable obviously. 

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8 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Indeed yes, the capitulation of Germany at the end of WW1 was blamed on "the enemy within" which in Hitlers mind meant Jews, Communists and anyone weak-minded enough to be considered "defeatist".

Those years essentially developed  his personal antisemitism, but it could have remained personal fringe ravings.

What is the true Black Swan event is that Nazi'ism COULD have remained a lunatic fringe party had there not been a banking crisis in the early 1930's. 2 of the 4 "high street" german banks failed - and were not state bailed out - so they worsened an economic recession into the Great Depression. One of these banks - Danatbank - had a Jewish head.

So Hitler was able to build a narrative that Jewish bankers were impoverishing German businessmen. And people believed him and that narrative.

He was a truly evil man but it could an extreme combination of unlikely events to give him the means.

We should be careful to learn from history as we have had arguably a Black Swan economic event of our own......let us fervently hope that nothing goes so badly wrong we start looking for people to blame...... 

History is so so important ! As I get older and see news items from time to time .. you become able to recognise patterns and get a sense that if we don’t this right then it’s going to end badly because something similar has happened before. 

i think our black Swann is a huge thing. It’s a global shift, you can’t attribute it to one party or another It isn’t political,in a left/right sense, it’s just history, shift of power and  evolving events. The old west 50/100 years ago which was so wealthy (on Ill gotten gains perhaps ) started being responsible,  just, sophisticated and caring. Then other parts of the world caught up financially and technologically, they got their stuff back, they learned other stuff, made their own way and we ran out of money to pay for the decency we have all come to expect. No manufacturing, automation, no cheap resources, competition and growing populations. 
 

We live in interesting times. With issues that are more complex and global than our 1950/60 ancestors but more importantly are from a different relative power and position perspective 
 

it’s a hairy time at the moment .. and in times like these evil lurks. Extremes get a voice they should not have. 

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20 minutes ago, Highgate said:

For many Christians the Jews were guilty of deicide. For a genuinely religious person, that's naturally a serious allegation and it's a 'crime' that followed the Jewish people down through the centuries.  Absurd when you think about it, but it was definitely a factor historically.

Also Jewish populations, within whatever country they were living in, tended not to get caught up in any local nationalistic fervour that was sweeping through wherever it was.  For some flag-waving hyper nationalists that led them to suspect the Jewish communities of being disloyal or even plotting against the state. 

Those are two possible reasons beyond what you've already mention.  Neither of them remotely justifiable obviously. 

It’s interesting isn’t it that nationalistic thing..  I have been to a fair few Barmitvahs, weddings and so on, and certainly in the UK there is a particular custom of a Toast to the queen. It was explained to me as a need to say “thanks for having us” and “we will be and are loyal” because of past sufferings elsewhere,which historically squares with your point. 
 

and on Deicide .. ironic considering JC was a Jew .. I never worked that one out lol 

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2 minutes ago, jono said:

It’s interesting isn’t it that nationalistic thing..  I have been to a fair few Barmitvahs, weddings and so on, and certainly in the UK there is a particular custom of a Toast to the queen. It was explained to me as a need to say “thanks for having us” and “we will be and are loyal” because of past sufferings elsewhere,which historically squares with your point. 
 

and on Deicide .. ironic considering JC was a Jew .. I never worked that one out lol 

Definitely a Jew, but literally God as far as the Christians were concerned. Although the fact he was crucified suggests that it was the Romans who did it anyway...given that was their preferred technique of execution.

The toast to the Queen is very interesting, I didn't know that.

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48 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Definitely a Jew, but literally God as far as the Christians were concerned. Although the fact he was crucified suggests that it was the Romans who did it anyway...given that was their preferred technique of execution.

The toast to the Queen is very interesting, I didn't know that.

The queen thing is only my personal experience Across various parts of a familes that were from  a mix of Manchester and North London , I wonder if Conehead John can verify ? 

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  will give the programme a watch , may have missed out if not for this topic ,,, with this topic , the Katie Hopkins one and similar debates on free speech ,, there’s a bit of me that kind of feels safer knowing where these loons are and just how barking they can be 

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