Jayden Bogle - the football thread

[Alph]

I was more pissed off with him when he constantly let crosses in to a dodgy Tomori early last season. 

Think he's very very good as he is. Makes mistakes that you would not expect from an older established fullback who knows all the tricks of the trade. If he's not interested in learning then Cocu is fair enough to have a go. But the errors he is making had to be made one day. 

[Wolfie20]

The lad's 19 and has already played 60+ games in one of the most physically demanding leagues in Europe. Young players of his age are almost certain to have dips in form and whilst I'm not convinced Cocu did the right think in publicly highlighting his 'lack of focus' so soon after the match on Saturday, I did tend to agree with his assessment.

If Bogle has anything about him he will learn from this experience and come back a wiser and therefore better player.

[goldstar]

I think defensively this year he's been woeful, but attacking wise can have great runs down the wing but unfortunately at the minute we're seeing way more of the former. 

There has been rumblings of an attitude problem, can i say im shocked when a 19 year old is given fame money and lots of ither perks?! Sadly no. 

I think he's got off lightly with the driving incident too, that really flew under the radar. Not like Bennett and Lawrence's accident but a disappointing event that hopefully isnt the start of a pattern.

[JustOneBiblicalKazim]

Lets not forget he only played about 3 games in the first 2 months of the season due to injury.

[Ghost of Clough]

3 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Has Bogle actually been that bad this season, I mean really? He's still one of our better performers. He's a teenager. I've seen people say he hasn't improved on last season, but I personally don't think that could be any further from the truth. 

Last season, at the start of the season, both Tomori and Bogle were being bailed out by Keogh who was playing his best football. They both improved towards the end of the season, Tomori more so, but Bogle was a marked improvement in the last three months of the season. This season, he doesn't have defenders anywhere near the standard of Tomori and Keogh to support him. He's been on the pitch for 31 of our 45 goals conceded. He's played in 25 games. It certainly not an awful record. I'm not going to say he should be the player of the season, but I personally don't see why we're chomping at the bit to kick a young lad in our team who arguably has the largest potential in the squad - he's certainly in the conversation.

I would say over the course of the season his performance levels are higher, perhaps not on the last 2/3 months of last season, but you can't expect a 19 year old to have the concentration and consistency of a seasoned pro - he's still effectively learning on the job.

Based on Whoscored, he's had 11 games (2 as a latish sub) rated 6.56 or lower. He's had 14 games rated 6.84 or higher. [Nothing in between]

In the same rating ranges, Holmes has had 9 games rated 6.56 or lower, 15 above 6.84, with 3 games rated in the middle.

[Ghost of Clough]

5 hours ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

Trouble is with Bogle, he thinks he’s already made it when in fact, has he even started? 

Yes he’s a good player but he has so much more to learn. 

It would have been great to get a £10m + bid in for him but he’s got too many weaknesses and his attitude is one of them and this is why nobody has made a serious offer for him  

He needs to forget about his appearance for a minute and think more about putting effort into his job. 

I'm lost as to why getting a new hairstyle detracts from the effort put in to his football

[jono]

8 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

Under Lampard, Bogle came in and was amazing. He then had a period where defensively he looked incredibly shakey and I know I was calling for him to have a time out of the first team but he remained in it and turned his form around. 
 

There’s a cracking player in there, he just needs to remain focussed and committed on making it to the very top. If he avoids distractions and puts in the hours outside of training I think he’d go a long way. 

He is exciting, skilled, strong beyond his years. A great talent .. but he is what 19 ? .. he needs to learn, that’s all. If he can then he’ll be a star. He isn’t one yet though. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

9 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I like Bogle but I do think our best defense this season as been when we have wisdom one side and Lowe the other. Wisdom allows Lowe to do what he does best, get forward and Wisdom keeps us solid. I always feel like its 3 at the back with Wisdom there.

Someone asked the other day against Bristol City, "why is Lowe so reluctant to get forward", the answer was because Bogle was playing and Lowe will have been told to play a bit deeper.

I remember the wisdom Forsyth full backs under Mac 1 similarly. When we went with christie and dossier were more vulnerable.

[Comrade 86]

5 hours ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

The whole problem with your post is mentioning Bogle and Beckham in the same post. 

You only have to be connected to the academy to know where Bogles problems lie. 

Are you connected? I’m guessing the answer is no, so you aren’t able to comment. 

The academy takes a firm stance with a lot of things and Bogle breaks a lot of these. 

Or was you commenting just to try and get more likes?? 

Jeez! Who stole the caramel out of your stroopwafel?

[Ghost of Clough]

6 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Jeez! Who stole the caramel out of your stroopwafel?

Bogle by the sound of things

[Comrade 86]

Jayden is a great young player and has the tools at his disposal to go far. I really hope he does so with Derby. He hasn't quite looked himself since his earlier injury and it's not really terribly helpful making assumptions as to why not. I suspect Cocu has mentioned him not so much to single him out but rather because Jayden has so much latent ability. When Jayden plays well, invariably the team does well so it's more frustrating for the coaches when gamechangers under-perform.

In any case, after the events of this weekend perhaps it'd make sense to lay off the lad. He's too much talent to be off his game for long. 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I'm lost as to why getting a new hairstyle detracts from the effort put in to his football

It’s not just his hair, he’s been told not to wear his socks over his knees but he does what he likes. He’s also told not to wear gloves (club policy) but he still does. 
 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

It’s not just his hair, he’s been told not to wear his socks over his knees but he does what he likes. He’s also told not to wear gloves (club policy) but he still does. 
 

Is that it? He has an awful attitude because he wears gloves and pulls his socks up? 

Is that a new policy? I’m sure other players have worn gloves during the past couple of seasons

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

20 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Is that it? He has an awful attitude because he wears gloves and pulls his socks up? 

Is that a new policy? I’m sure other players have worn gloves during the past couple of seasons

I'd say not listening to the people in charge over and over again, is a bad attitude. 

[Rosythram]

I am aware of generational differences, how would Brian Clough have reacted to his obvious show boating!

[DarkFruitsRam7]

1 minute ago, Rosythram said:

I am aware of generational differences, how would Brian Clough have reacted to his obvious show boating!

Bloody hell, all he did was copy an NBA celebration. This after sending an absolute rocket into the top corner from 25 yards out.

[Comrade 86]

I feel like I've entered the twighlight zone reading this ********.

[DanS1992]

I would say that Bogle does have a slight effort issue. The amount of times he looses the ball high up the pitch only to casually jog back. He should be busting a gut to track back and make up for his mistake. So I wouldn't say it is an attitude problem, more of an effort thing, so young Bogle needs to stop thinking he has made it and start putting some more effort in on the pitch. Do that and the fans will back him again in no time.

[Mckram]

My opinion would be that I agree with Bald Eagle. 

I think all of the hype last season and supposed interest from PL teams has had an affect on him.

I actually think Max Lowe is a better prospect and seems to have a better attitude.

I hope he proves me wrong, but if we were to be offered anything above £10m in the summer I’d snap their hands off.

Wisdom and Lowe next season as fullbacks would give us a better balance. 

 

[Millenniumram]

Good to see this thread created, think there’s a lot to discuss about Bogle away from the obvious awful off the field incidents involving him and others. 

I’d start off by saying that, while I agree with the sentiment that Bogle isn’t good enough defensively right now, I still don’t think he should be playing in midfield. Not unless we really are struggling for options anyway, which I don’t think were quite at the point of yet, even with Holmes injury. You could argue he may be better as a RWB, but as soon as you move properly into midfield a bit of a different skill set is required to succeed imo. You’ll be facing much closer defensive attention than you would as an on running fullback, which requires a lot more close control and skill on the ball to deal with. You’ll also be more expected to deliver goals as well as assists, so you’d need to have good composure in front of goal, as well as the intelligence to know when to pass, when to shoot, as well as who to pass to, when in the final third. A full back won’t necessarily have all of this skillset in their locker. It’s a very much different role, and I wouldn’t like to see Bogle thrown in as a square peg in a round hole.

That said, I do think we need to think carefully about how we replace Holmes. I’m not convinced that either Shinnie or Knight is quite the right sort of player to cover for him for the rest of the season. While both are centre mids, neither really offer the team quite what Holmes does in terms of his ball carrying ability. In fact none of our midfielders, bar Sibley, really have that sort of quality, and I’m not convinced he’s ready yet. Holmes is a very difficult man to replace in that respect, and it further emphasises how important he is to us as a team. As mental as it sounds.... I actually think the man to replace Holmes is none other than Florian Josefzoon, in a switch of system. Now I don’t rate the lad, he’s looked a pretty poor player at this level previously and has offered very little, but it does strike me that he’s about the only other player we have left with even an ounce of pace and ability to make those direct runs at the opposition defence that Holmes makes. I think he’s worth at least another go just to see what happens. I’m really struggling to see what else would work. 

Final word back to the main point on what to do with Bogle as well. I personally think it’s as simple as we leave him out the team. He hasn’t had a poor season by any stretch of the imagination, but his levels have dropped from last season, and his recent form hasn’t been good enough. Wisdom has deservedly won the RB position, and on current form should undoubtedly keep it. That obviously leaves us with no options at Centre half so we’ll have to hope Davies and Clarke are good enough, but I think it’s the way it has to be. Obviously I don’t think Wisdom is overall a better player than Bogle, the former is probably no more than an average player at this level whereas Bogle’s natural ability is obviously at a higher standard, but on current form Wisdom is playing better - simple as that. So until Bogle gets his act together, he needs to fight for that place back. The one thing that does worry me with him though is his regression from last season. You’d hope for young players to be on a pretty constant upward trajectory, but Bogle seems to have dropped a level from being one of the best at this level last season to just being “good”. Now for a 19 year old that’s still mightily impressive don’t get me wrong, but his confidence in the final third does seem to have dropped, as well as his defensive concentration, which does worry me a bit. And that’s not just recently, he’s been similar all season. It’s not a good sign in a youngsters development when they seem to get worse rather than better imo, although starting at such a high level it’s obviously difficult for Jayden.