We need to back Cocu

[Uptherams]

19 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

The point is when we get in replacements if they aren't successful they too get put on the 'need to replace' list - all these players that we buy/loan are they really that bad or is the manager (at the time) unable to get the best out of them?

Whether or not people think we need up to 10 new players as some fans are stating, the parameters have changed and fans need to understand this sooner rather than later. The owner has stated an ambition of half the starting lineup at the beginning of next season being players that have come from our academy. When you put Rooney into this equation, that doesn't leave a lot of positions left to fill in the lineup or matchday squad. Mel is also not going to repeat the same mistakes as before when it comes to spending sprees and FFP. Even without splashing the cash, we are a loss making club. Just one major transfer a season can put us in a position to break the threshold. This new investment can't breach FFP rules. 

Therefor we won't have a very big pile of resources to pay for wages or transfer fees and we certainly won't spend big on multiple players, because some would simply end up on the bench or not making the match day squad altogether. Which would beg the question, why did we waste money on X,Y,Z. 

In the summer we could see  up to 10 players leaving. Players on big wages, with lots of experience. Replacing these players is going to be a difficult task. Most of their replacements will simply be squad players. Drifting in and out of the starting lineup and match day squad. Fans need to be realistic about the quality of player we will capture. Of 10 players for example, we'd be lucky to get 2 permanent signings that are of stature. Another 2/3 would probably be loans. As we have seen this season, you can guarantee at least one will get a long term injury or at all times, at least 1 will be injured. Then there would be 4 other squad players of varying experience. Of this, we'd be lucky if half (5) turn out to be a success. 

The Championship continues to be about getting the best out of the squad you have. 

 

[Jourdan]

2 hours ago, nottingram said:

Steve Cooper is so interested in the long term development of his club that just under 5 of their usual starting XI are loans from big clubs, which is exactly the policy that has us in the mess we’re in now.

Only one of Cocu and Cooper is developing a club for the long term. And it isn’t the one who looks like a gargoyle.

You can’t preach you want a manager to grow the club, and want a manager who is doing that sacked for short term results. Doesn’t make sense.

I don't want Cocu sacked for short term results. If that was the case, I would have been calling for his head in September. I want Cocu to go because I don't think he is the right fit for the club. Neither in the short term, nor the long term. 

I said I want a manager to grow with the club. It's an important distinction to make. That would suggest someone rising through the ranks. That would suggest someone with little to no managerial experience. That would suggest someone with a point to prove. That would suggest someone that matches the club's principles. That would suggest someone under no illusions about the challenging constraints they would have to work under.

The reason I said someone in the mould of Steve Cooper is because Swansea obviously assessed their own situation - rebuilding after years in the Premier League, working on an ever-shrinking budget, trying to develop young players and merely hoping to compete - and appointed someone to fit.

This is Cooper's first job in management. Were Swansea really expecting him to deliver promotion in year one? It's doubtful. With his reputation as a respected coach, you would imagine Cooper was appointed to improve their young players coming through and for his coaching skills to take effect over time. It's obvious that Swansea have overachieved so far this season being in contention for the play-offs. And with that perhaps his remit has changed slightly and they have made more ambitious signings in January.

But at the start of the season, it looked like an appointment with a long term rebuild in mind. Their three best players were sold and the majority of their signings have been unproven young players on loan to add to what is also largely a squad of young, emerging players, with the exception of five or six players.

The point I was making is that Cocu's profile and experience really doesn't marry up well with a club in our situation, especially now the reality of it (FFP) has become clear.

[Gone]

4 hours ago, kingsy1884 said:

I agree the football hasnt been great. Neither are the players he has left are particularly good. We need points on the board at home they have been effect at that. 

Rooneys appearance has changed this we can only hope new signings will make the difference too. The young players we now have are a massive highlight just need a few additions. I would prefer proper ones in the summer.

I just don’t see it getting better. I’m sure we will bring in better players but I don’t see us playing better football, I just find the style dull, magnolia, boring. There is no excitement about the way we play, we sit back and let teams come at us. I want to see us on the front foot, this just isn’t Cocus style from what I’ve seen. It’s just boring 

[nottingram]

16 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I don't want Cocu sacked for short term results. If that was the case, I would have been calling for his head in September. I want Cocu to go because I don't think he is the right fit for the club. Neither in the short term, nor the long term. 

I said I want a manager to grow with the club. It's an important distinction to make. That would suggest someone rising through the ranks. That would suggest someone with little to no managerial experience. That would suggest someone with a point to prove. That would suggest someone that matches the club's principles. That would suggest someone under no illusions about the challenging constraints they would have to work under.

The reason I said someone in the mould of Steve Cooper is because Swansea obviously assessed their own situation - rebuilding after years in the Premier League, working on an ever-shrinking budget, trying to develop young players and merely hoping to compete - and appointed someone to fit.

This is Cooper's first job in management. Were Swansea really expecting him to deliver promotion in year one? It's doubtful. With his reputation as a respected coach, you would imagine Cooper was appointed to improve their young players coming through and for his coaching skills to take effect over time. It's obvious that Swansea have overachieved so far this season being in contention for the play-offs. And with that perhaps his remit has changed slightly and they have made more ambitious signings in January.

But at the start of the season, it looked like an appointment with a long term rebuild in mind. Their three best players were sold and the majority of their signings have been unproven young players on loan to add to what is also largely a squad of young, emerging players, with the exception of five or six players.

The point I was making is that Cocu's profile and experience really doesn't marry up well with a club in our situation, especially now the reality of it (FFP) has become clear.

Appointing a manager that fit the credentials outlined in your second paragraph worked wonderfully well for us last season until somebody else came calling, and because they’re young and ambitious they are gone. Hiring somebody to “grow with the club” is frankly a complete fairytale because at the first sign of them “growing” they want to leave. Cocu perfectly matches the clubs principles, he quite clearly wants to develop youth players (our own ones, not Chelsea’s or Newcastle’s). Do you think Bird, Knight and Lowe have developed this season at all? 

I don’t think Swansea play particularly good football, not like under Potter last season (another example of hiring a manager to grow only for them to clear off).

At the start of the season, we were in pretty similar situations to Swansea. They were probably one year further on in their transition than us, because last season we chose to kick the can down the road with our loan signings.

I don’t understand, you seem to have highlighted all the reasons that Cocu is a great fit for the club, but concluded by saying he isn’t a great fit.

He wants to develop our young players, judging by our best performances this season (frustratingly few and far between I accept), he wants us to play good football, he wants to add value down the squad which will be particularly important now with FFP issues. Then you add to that the other off field nonsense, it’s plain lunacy to want him sacked, especially when you bizarrely dress it up as wanting him sacked for long term reasons.

[Andicis]

4 hours ago, DanS1992 said:

And you suppose Bielsa did at Leeds when he took over? Inherited a mixed bunch from Thomas Christiansen and Paul Heckingbottom. Under both managers they finished mid table. Look where they are now and what type of football they play. If Cocu is getting the best out of what he has got, then Bielsa must be a demi-god...

Bielsa spent plenty of money in his first transfer window. On top of that, as you say, he inherited a squad from crap managers, which I would argue he just made them play to their potential. We didn't have underperforming players, ours just aren't good enough.

[TuffLuff]

2 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

Eh?

How can he have invested more?. He's just sold the stadium to himself (at an alledgedly inflated price) just to try and keep us within EFL limits as it is.

Lack of investment coming in as expected is one of a host of off field distractions and frustrations that are having an effect on a roost turvy season

I never said it had anything to do with Mel’s investment, it’s the management of what’s being going off behind the scenes that he has to take his fair share of.

[Wolfie]

30 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Lack of investment coming in as expected is one of a host of off field distractions and frustrations that are having an effect on a roost turvy season

I never said it had anything to do with Mel’s investment, it’s the management of what’s being going off behind the scenes that he has to take his fair share of.

Erm....

3 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

External factors-injuries, both major and minor. A tipsy turvy season off the pitch has been one big distraction

Internal-Cocu having faith in the wrong players (Waghorn and Lawrence), players scared to make a mistake sometimes due inexperience and sometimes due to confidence, players not taking responsibility and only reacting under desperation rather than taking control.

Essentially it’s a whole load of stuff. I put a lot in the players personally, but Cocu has to take his share and so does Morris for the lack of investment and management of the situation. 

Even if you mean it's the delay in inward investment from elsewhere, then that's down to the EFL investigations. We're supposed to have done nothing wrong, having had everyting signed off by the EFL, so unless you know different, then it's still not a stick you can beat Mel with.

It doesn't alter the fact that we're up to (or beyond) the limit in investment as it is. Where that cash comes from is pretty irrelevant, really.

[TuffLuff]

1 minute ago, Van Wolfie said:

Erm....

Even if you mean it's the delay in inward investment from elsewhere, then that's down to the EFL investigations. We're supposed to have done nothing wrong, having had everyting signed off by the EFL, so unless you know different, then it's still not a stick you can beat Mel with.

It doesn't alter the fact that we're up to (or beyond) the limit in investment as it is. Where that cash comes from is pretty irrelevant, really.

Meh, I explained what I meant.

[Abu Dhabi Ram]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I don't want Cocu sacked for short term results. If that was the case, I would have been calling for his head in September. I want Cocu to go because I don't think he is the right fit for the club. Neither in the short term, nor the long term. 

I said I want a manager to grow with the club. It's an important distinction to make. That would suggest someone rising through the ranks. That would suggest someone with little to no managerial experience. That would suggest someone with a point to prove. That would suggest someone that matches the club's principles. That would suggest someone under no illusions about the challenging constraints they would have to work under.

The reason I said someone in the mould of Steve Cooper is because Swansea obviously assessed their own situation - rebuilding after years in the Premier League, working on an ever-shrinking budget, trying to develop young players and merely hoping to compete - and appointed someone to fit.

This is Cooper's first job in management. Were Swansea really expecting him to deliver promotion in year one? It's doubtful. With his reputation as a respected coach, you would imagine Cooper was appointed to improve their young players coming through and for his coaching skills to take effect over time. It's obvious that Swansea have overachieved so far this season being in contention for the play-offs. And with that perhaps his remit has changed slightly and they have made more ambitious signings in January.

But at the start of the season, it looked like an appointment with a long term rebuild in mind. Their three best players were sold and the majority of their signings have been unproven young players on loan to add to what is also largely a squad of young, emerging players, with the exception of five or six players.

The point I was making is that Cocu's profile and experience really doesn't marry up well with a club in our situation, especially now the reality of it (FFP) has become clear.

So you want to ditch a manager who has played at the highest level, had further success in management because this doesn't match with the clubs ambitions??? Well let's get big Phil Brown back then!! 

[Jourdan]

2 hours ago, nottingram said:

Appointing a manager that fit the credentials outlined in your second paragraph worked wonderfully well for us last season until somebody else came calling, and because they’re young and ambitious they are gone. Hiring somebody to “grow with the club” is frankly a complete fairytale because at the first sign of them “growing” they want to leave. Cocu perfectly matches the clubs principles, he quite clearly wants to develop youth players (our own ones, not Chelsea’s or Newcastle’s). Do you think Bird, Knight and Lowe have developed this season at all? 

I don’t think Swansea play particularly good football, not like under Potter last season (another example of hiring a manager to grow only for them to clear off).

At the start of the season, we were in pretty similar situations to Swansea. They were probably one year further on in their transition than us, because last season we chose to kick the can down the road with our loan signings.

I don’t understand, you seem to have highlighted all the reasons that Cocu is a great fit for the club, but concluded by saying he isn’t a great fit.

He wants to develop our young players, judging by our best performances this season (frustratingly few and far between I accept), he wants us to play good football, he wants to add value down the squad which will be particularly important now with FFP issues. Then you add to that the other off field nonsense, it’s plain lunacy to want him sacked, especially when you bizarrely dress it up as wanting him sacked for long term reasons.

Hiring a manager to grow with the club makes perfect sense if the manager is at the right stage of his career for the job required, leaves the club in a better position than he found it, and both the club and the manager benefit from their time in charge.

It’s all about hiring to fit. And Cocu is not a great fit in any sense. Coming here was viewed as a step down from previous jobs in top divisions. Many thought he would prove himself to be above the Championship, and with that, it brought pressure to succeed.

The reality is quite different. He is entirely new to English football. He doesn’t understand the Championship. And so he can’t get the best out of what he has. He doesn’t encourage an attractive brand of football. And he and the team have cracked under the weight of that expectation.

People believe that he needs 12-18 months and 6-10 players for all of that to change. That’s the fairytale.

What are we getting out of this? What is Cocu getting out of this? Both the club and the manager are suffering and going backwards rapidly.

You say that his principles line up with the club’s, you say that he wants to play good football, you say that he wants to develop our young players and that he isn’t interested in developing other teams’ young players. But it’s all unfounded.

Matching principles? What we are spoon fed and what Cocu’s principles actually are, we’ll never know, but we do know every other manager and Mel had matching principles until Mel was turned off. Good football? The football we play is cautious, negative and dour with little to no sign of improvement. Developing our own players and not other teams’? Our top target in this window was a young player on loan from the Premier League. Two of our three significant summer signings were young players on loan from the Premier League.

Any desire to develop our youth is his hand is being forced by our ever worsening financial situation. The severity of which Cocu probably wasn’t aware of when we were spending millions on Bielik and making a big song and dance about signing Wayne Rooney.

I find it hard to believe he came here expecting to work under the actual constraints the club now face. He has had no choice but to be professional and accept them.

A reset is needed, so a manager can come in, know the score, and approach the job with eyes wide open. A bit similar to when Nigel Clough arrived. 

Did Cocu really come here to do a Clough-style job?

[RoyMac5]

31 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Hiring a manager to grow with the club makes perfect sense if the manager is at the right stage of his career for the job required, leaves the club in a better position than he found it, and both the club and the manager benefit from their time in charge.

...

Did Cocu really come here to do a Clough-style job?

I wonder what his preconceptions of the Championship and our Academy were. I don't think he came here to do a Clough-style job although he's making a good fist of it whether he means to or not! Season over before February, playing players in odd positions, casting them aside and bringing them back (although I'm not sure I remember whether Clough Jnr did that)!

Anyway I wonder what he really though the job was going to take - he can't have had any real idea of the quality of players in our Academy can he? 

[Seaside Sam]

16 hours ago, Big Trav said:

For all the cocu outers. HES STAYING AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. Still the man to take us forward imo. 

dream on

[RoyMac5]

16 hours ago, Big Trav said:

For all the cocu outers. HES STAYING AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. 

Not us no, but Mel will if results don't change and crowds stay away.

[Seaside Sam]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I wonder what his preconceptions of the Championship and our Academy were. I don't think he came here to do a Clough-style job although he's making a good fist of it whether he means to or not! Season over before February, playing players in odd positions, casting them aside and bringing them back (although I'm not sure I remember whether Clough Jnr did that)!

Anyway I wonder what he really though the job was going to take - he can't have had any real idea of the quality of players in our Academy can he? 

everything he does at the moment just smacks of desperation,so as Simon Cowell would put it it's a big NO from me

[CornwallRam]

48 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

...

A reset is needed, so a manager can come in, know the score, and approach the job with eyes wide open. A bit similar to when Nigel Clough arrived. 

Did Cocu really come here to do a Clough-style job?

Nigel felt he was brought in under false pretences. When he got here, he found he had far lower levels of cash available and was suddenly told he had to cut the wage bill. He almost walked after a few months because it wasn't the job which he had been sold. 

[nottingram]

56 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Hiring a manager to grow with the club makes perfect sense if the manager is at the right stage of his career for the job required, leaves the club in a better position than he found it, and both the club and the manager benefit from their time in charge.

It’s all about hiring to fit. And Cocu is not a great fit in any sense. Coming here was viewed as a step down from previous jobs in top divisions. Many thought he would prove himself to be above the Championship, and with that, it brought pressure to succeed.

The reality is quite different. He is entirely new to English football. He doesn’t understand the Championship. And so he can’t get the best out of what he has. He doesn’t encourage an attractive brand of football. And he and the team have cracked under the weight of that expectation.

People believe that he needs 12-18 months and 6-10 players for all of that to change. That’s the fairytale.

What are we getting out of this? What is Cocu getting out of this? Both the club and the manager are suffering and going backwards rapidly.

You say that his principles line up with the club’s, you say that he wants to play good football, you say that he wants to develop our young players and that he isn’t interested in developing other teams’ young players. But it’s all unfounded.

Matching principles? What we are spoon fed and what Cocu’s principles actually are, we’ll never know, but we do know every other manager and Mel had matching principles until Mel was turned off. Good football? The football we play is cautious, negative and dour with little to no sign of improvement. Developing our own players and not other teams’? Our top target in this window was a young player on loan from the Premier League. Two of our three significant summer signings were young players on loan from the Premier League.

Any desire to develop our youth is his hand is being forced by our ever worsening financial situation. The severity of which Cocu probably wasn’t aware of when we were spending millions on Bielik and making a big song and dance about signing Wayne Rooney.

I find it hard to believe he came here expecting to work under the actual constraints the club now face. He has had no choice but to be professional and accept them.

A reset is needed, so a manager can come in, know the score, and approach the job with eyes wide open. A bit similar to when Nigel Clough arrived. 

Did Cocu really come here to do a Clough-style job?

So if we followed the Swansea route, say, do you think they’ll be in a better position than what they were found in if Cooper were to leave at the end of the season? Probably not, he’s doing a largely similar job to what Frank did here, plugging holes with short term fixes to make himself look better and I don’t think we were left in a better state than what Lampard found us in. 

Of course he’s under pressure to succeed. Is there a single manager in world football who isn’t? The only people putting pressure on him to succeed quickly are people who want him sacked now. I would agree he isn’t getting the best out of what he has at the moment, doesn’t worry me too much as that’s a short term viewpoint. This squad at their very best pre Rooney is probably top 12 at best so a few places here or there doesn’t bother me.

I think the football could be better of course. I’ve asked it to others before but seriously what would you do with this set of players. The goalkeeper and centre backs can’t play out, there’s no target man to go long to, there’s no runners to chase channel balls, no one can cross.

It’s frankly laughable that you think it’s unfounded he wants to develop our youth players. Literally that is the whole point of what he is doing. He’s also stated he will only sign players on loan with a reasonable chance of a permanent deal at the end so I will choose to believe that was a possibility for Benkovic, and it fits the mould of big signings in problem areas that was followed with the signing of Bielik, who has looked great but unfortunately is injured now, not Cocu’s fault. 

You then seem to use the clubs constraints against him. Not sure why, but it follows a general trend of you bending anything to fit a pre determined narrative. The clubs constraints and his policy of youth promotion are a intertwined. The club is going to rely on selling young players to keep going, they can’t do that without a manager to promote them. He did it at PSV as well and it’s a large reason he was hired, so I’m really not sure why you think it’s forced because of our financial situation. 

[Jourdan]

13 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I wonder what his preconceptions of the Championship and our Academy were. I don't think he came here to do a Clough-style job although he's making a good fist of it whether he means to or not! Season over before February, playing players in odd positions, casting them aside and bringing them back (although I'm not sure I remember whether Clough Jnr did that)!

Anyway I wonder what he really though the job was going to take - he can't have had any real idea of the quality of players in our Academy can he? 

It’d definitely be interesting to know how those conversations went.

Did we dazzle him with a presentation in the style of Bielsa?

Did we offer him a lucrative salary?

I tend to think Cocu desperately wanted to manage in the Premier League. But we warned him of the risks and suggested we were a safer choice than the likes of Newcastle and West Ham, and that we’d be there ourselves in no time at all.

Seeing how things have transpired, it definitely does make you wonder what was the appeal for Cocu and also if there is an escape clause in his contract.

Surely he could have got a top flight job in Italy, France, or Spain and took on a long-term project instead of this mess?

[Jourdan]

23 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

Nigel felt he was brought in under false pretences. When he got here, he found he had far lower levels of cash available and was suddenly told he had to cut the wage bill. He almost walked after a few months because it wasn't the job which he had been sold. 

Where did you read this?

[CornwallRam]

10 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Where did you read this?

It was an in depth interview last year - might have even been for podcast. I can't find it now and can't remember where it was published. 

[irobinson]

yep we have to stick with him

 

Theres a bit of thinking though around

 

1 Some players are just not good enough and we need to get shut (he inherited a few duffers)

2 is he getting the best out of the squad - not sure yet

3 Doin well on young academy players development

 

All in all. - a bit painful at the moment. I was at Luton last night

Very disappointed as I did witness the first Rooney goal and a great header from CM

but supported the rams since I was a kid - 45 years....that won't change

I followed them home and away when we went down to the third tier...I have so say that was a really enjoyable season....although I don't really want to go down there again