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Types of Winger


Dethorn

Different Wingers  

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4 minutes ago, Dethorn said:

Thanks - I do know that you need a balance and players around them and was not suggesting a formation of 0-0-2-0

But I was trying to gauge the feeling on here - I read a lot about Lawrence and recently some about Ince.

It seemed to me the feeling around the two types of winger was quite a talking point on here.

Guess I misjudged that then ?

Lawrence and Ince aren't the types to play with a smile, and they haven't got the burst of pace like Russell, Bennett and Weimann. A lot of people seem to interpret this as having a low work rate whereas the numbers clearly show this misconception is wrong. Looking simply at tackles and interceptions per 90 minutes...

Tackles
Ince - 1.7/2.6
Lawrence - 1.5/2.6
Russell - 1.8/2.8
Weimann - 1.3/2.2

Interceptions
Ince - 0.7
Lawrence - 0.7
Russell - 0.9
Weimann - 0.7

So, Ince and Lawrence's defensive contribution is/was higher than work-horse Weimann, but not quite as high as Russell (not many wingers in this league are). 
What's that...Not team players you say?

Passes
Ince - 29.3
Lawrence - 30.5
Russell - 29.1
Weimann - 26.9

Crosses
Ince - 4.7
Lawrence - 4.3
Russell - 3.4
Weimann - 1.6

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1 hour ago, Ambitious said:

Ince did work hard. You don't get the ball that often if you don't. He was always on the move, looking for the ball and was often hard to mark. He worked as hard, if not harder, than the other group of players - he also had the ability to make it count. 

Lawrence, I feel, isn't lazy but just doesn't have the mental strength or fitness. Jozefzoon, I fear, at this point just doesn't care. 

You’d better bell Phil before Friday for the heads up 

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7 minutes ago, cannable said:

I think one thing with wingers is that they need the conditions to play just as an striker or midfielder does. 

Ince was crap under Rowett, Pearson and on the wing under Clement. He was immense under McClaren and Clement as a #10 and was decent under Wassall. He’s crap now. He was good when he had freedom. 

According to transfermarkt...

McClaren (wing) - 42 games, 22 goals, 10 assists
McClaren (#10) - 4 games, 1 goal
Clement (wing) - 27 games, 8 goals, 2 assists
Clement (#10) - 2 games, 1 assist
Pearson (wing) - 11 games
Powell (wing) - 2 games, 1 goal
Wassall (wing) - 18 games, 4 goals, 4 assists
Rowett (wing) - 9 games, 2 assists, 2 goals

7 minutes ago, cannable said:

Russell was good on the right but not the left. Not sure the criticisms of his end product was fair. He’d got well over 50 goals and assists in his first three seasons (from the right). His runs inside would stretch the opposition and trigger the rotation. 

RW - 78 games, 11 goals, 13 assists
LW - 102 games, 16 goals, 20 assists
CF/10 - 12 games, 7 goals, 1 assist

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23 minutes ago, cannable said:

I think one thing with wingers is that they need the conditions to play just as an striker or midfielder does. 

Ince was crap under Rowett, Pearson and on the wing under Clement. He was immense under McClaren and Clement as a #10 and was decent under Wassall. He’s crap now. He was good when he had freedom. 

Russell was good on the right but not the left. Not sure the criticisms of his end product was fair. He’d got well over 50 goals and assists in his first three seasons (from the right). His runs inside would stretch the opposition and trigger the rotation. 

He looked pretty good last Monday for Stoke.

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10 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

According to transfermarkt...

McClaren (wing) - 42 games, 22 goals, 10 assists
McClaren (#10) - 4 games, 1 goal
Clement (wing) - 27 games, 8 goals, 2 assists
Clement (#10) - 2 games, 1 assist
Pearson (wing) - 11 games
Powell (wing) - 2 games, 1 goal
Wassall (wing) - 18 games, 4 goals, 4 assists
Rowett (wing) - 9 games, 2 assists, 2 goals

RW - 78 games, 11 goals, 13 assists
LW - 102 games, 16 goals, 20 assists
CF/10 - 12 games, 7 goals, 1 assist

Transfermarkt isn’t entirely accurate. Under Wassall for example, it has Ince on the right and Russell on the left when they were the opposite way around. Ince scored his hat-trick against Bristol City as a #10 as well so I can see straight away that’s wrong. 

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28 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Lawrence and Ince aren't the types to play with a smile, and they haven't got the burst of pace like Russell, Bennett and Weimann. A lot of people seem to interpret this as having a low work rate whereas the numbers clearly show this misconception is wrong. Looking simply at tackles and interceptions per 90 minutes...

Tackles
Ince - 1.7/2.6
Lawrence - 1.5/2.6
Russell - 1.8/2.8
Weimann - 1.3/2.2

Interceptions
Ince - 0.7
Lawrence - 0.7
Russell - 0.9
Weimann - 0.7

So, Ince and Lawrence's defensive contribution is/was higher than work-horse Weimann, but not quite as high as Russell (not many wingers in this league are). 
What's that...Not team players you say?

Passes
Ince - 29.3
Lawrence - 30.5
Russell - 29.1
Weimann - 26.9

Crosses
Ince - 4.7
Lawrence - 4.3
Russell - 3.4
Weimann - 1.6

Awesome information thanks for that - makes me feel Weimann was not as good as I thought but that Ince, Lawrence and Russell are probably all better than I thought

 

The thing that stats do not tell us though and I guess this colours my judgement a bit is something that I noticed across the two legs against Hull in the playoffs. In the first we played with Ince who seemed to compress us by coming back to pick up the ball, whereas in the second with Weimann stretching the Hull defenders giving Hendrick and Bryson more room to move into.

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Back on topic.... I’d reluctantly choose the second set personally. Two players stand out among the rest - and that’s Ince and Russell, in terms of what they achieved in their Derby careers. Ince was one of my favourite Derby attackers in my lifetime... but I just can’t bring myself to select a set of players that includes Josefzoon.... and I’m not a massive fan of Lawrence either. So on the balance that all 3 were at least effective enough to be decent players I’ve gone with the latter set. 

In reality however, it’s not as simple as one type of winger is better than the other. Ideally, you want wingers who are both industrious and productive - Ince was the closest for me - but those sort of players tend to play premier league football. You can’t really have all industrious wingers with no end product or you’ll never score enough goals, but equally you can’t have a squad load of greedy wingers otherwise your general play will keep breaking down. You need a mixture of both to be successful, so ideally I’d go for a trio of Ince, Weimann and Russell. Think there’s a bit of everything in there. Ironically that is exactly the trio that Clement had to work with, and the muppet still managed to duck it up. How he kept getting jobs I’ll never know.

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3 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Went with the workhorse group.

Its championship football.

Realistically though you'd want at least on tricks n skills option.

 

 

Yes and they could play on either flank and at centre forward if asked unlike all the 3 fancy dans 

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