EFL charge Derby over ffp

[ilkleyram]

24 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Except they have to have done by proxy - Over a 3 year period our recorded losses were £8m (ish) - According to the accounts which were submitted

If I were working at Derby right now I'd be on the phone to HMRC to see what they say about this - The EFL is merely the governing body that runs our sport - I don't see how they have the authority to judge whether legally required and judged accounts are legitimate or not

I'm not sure that HMRC have anything to do with it or would be interested. Their rules - when accounts have to be submitted, what is taxable and what is not etc -  are separate from the EFL who create the accounting rules under which the leagues operate

[Reggie Greenwood]

12 hours ago, Gut_Reaction said:

Completely agree with you. Supporters suffer whether from points deduction or the sale of better and often more entertaining players which in turn usually means loss of points. 

Our Chairman will not break the rules (also owns Bristol Rugby) and meticulously adheres to the financial rules with both clubs. Being in financial services it is rather important to his reputation to do so. However it means the football club sells its better players whenever an acceptable bid Is received because it is the ONLY way a Championship club can remain within the rules. He has the wealth to gamble on promotion even more so than Morris. It is no wonder Gibson up at t'boro has been complaining about a number of clubs. 

The same Gibson who sold Boro's debts to one of his own firms at a cost to thetaxpayer.................don't make me laugh 

[Nuwtfly]

 

[duncanjwitham]

57 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

-On the flip side the stadium sale has never sat right with me. It felt dodgy (and that the EFL were seemingly going along with it is even more so). When spygate happened, many would have argued that whilst it wasn’t illegal to spy, morally it wasn’t correct. Once we are being creative with accounts, again it’s not illegal but it’s not morally correct, so we don’t have a leg to stand on when we say about other clubs. Have faith it’ll get sorted, but I am uncomfortable of the route Mel is taking us down so far.

The big issue here, is that selling your stadium is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in some cases.  We presumably sold the BBG at the point we moved into Pride Park, for example.  There are probably other good reasons too.  So you have to have some mechanism of accounting for it, otherwise anybody that sold their stadium would get an immediate points deduction, as the stadium disappearing off their books would just leave a massive hole that they could never hope to cover from elsewhere.

Morris has certainly implied that he's happier with the stadium in this position - it provides a certain safety net in that if the club were ever sold, we wouldn't end up like Coventry, with the stadium sold out from under us by a dodgy owner etc.  So who's to say he wasn't planning to do this sale at some point anyway?  Now I've no doubt he chose to do it that season because of FFP, but there's nothing remotely immoral about choosing to do it at a certain point because it maximises the benefits for everybody.

[ramsbottom]

31 minutes ago, Bwash_Ram said:

I thought it was just the valuation of the stadium that was the problem not the whole deal itself?

That's my understanding.  Seen some, so called, experts say it's about £40m over the odds.  But as others have pointed out, the price is what someone pays for it, not what people think it should be...  The EFL ratified the deal, twice, so why didn't someone, at any point during the dotting of the I's the crossing of the T's say "Hang on, that seems a bit much"?  They're doing this more as a face saving exercise than anything else...

[MikeS]

12 hours ago, RamNut said:

Taking a lower valuation for the ground sale might limit the year 3 losses and solve that years ffp issue. But for the next two years we still have to address the underlying problem and either halve those losses or start selling players.
we also have the added problem that we thought we were tens of millions of ££££ better off, and our spending will have been planned (sic) accordingly. 
this isn’t going to go away very quickly. 
And you thought the last transfer window was tricky?
we probably need to sell a couple of players ASAP. 

How about Lawrence, Bennett and Anya??!!

[MikeS]

9 hours ago, sunnyhill60 said:

Thanks for the best antidote to a truly dire evening.

(Even so, seeing Keogh's contribution just confirms how badly things have turned out this season to date)

Cheered me up no end.

If our beloved manager would actually pick Marriott once in a while, it would make my day.

[duncanjwitham]

4 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

That's my understanding.  Seen some, so called, experts say it's about £40m over the odds.  But as others have pointed out, the price is what someone pays for it, not what people think it should be...  The EFL ratified the deal, twice, so why didn't someone, at any point during the dotting of the I's the crossing of the T's say "Hang on, that seems a bit much"?  They're doing this more as a face saving exercise than anything else...

That's not quite right in all cases.  Try getting your bank to give you a £1m mortgage on a house - even if you're paying £1m for it, the bank will want an independent valuation to make sure the loan is secured on something worth enough to cover it.  It's a similar situation here.

[ramsbottom]

Just now, duncanjwitham said:

That's not quite right in all cases.  Try getting your bank to give you a £1m mortgage on a house - even if you're paying £1m for it, the bank will want an independent valuation to make sure the loan is secured on something worth enough to cover it.  It's a similar situation here.

But that makes my other point even more.  Why didn't anyone at the EFL pipe up and say that the stadium was over valued despite going over the books twice??

[Gaspode]

2 minutes ago, MikeS said:

Cheered me up no end.

If our beloved manager would actually pick Marriott once in a while, it would make my day.

you do realise that reports state that Marriott is currently injured (again!)?

[RamNut]

7 minutes ago, MikeS said:

How about Lawrence, Bennett and Anya??!!

Unfortunately Bennett won’t raise much.

anya won’t raise anything.

it would make sense to sell Lawrence if we got a decent offer but will we? And he is Cocu’s most selected player.

However I wouldn’t be surprised to see bogle and Lowe disappear. 

[Spanish]

7 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Unfortunately Bennett won’t raise much.

anya won’t raise anything.

it would make sense to sell Lawrence if we got a decent offer but will we? And he is Cocu’s most selected player.

However I wouldn’t be surprised to see bogle and Lowe disappear. 

anya and Lawrence are likely to have a negative P&S affect, 

[TramRam]

I'll get up tomorrow Morning, I'll cook myself some bacon and eggs with 3 rounds of bread and a coffee, I'll watch a bit of TV, Shower, Get my clothes on and catch the 12 noon bus, I'll be in the pub around 12-30pm, A couple or 3 beers, All the chat will be about our Mel and the EFL, Then around 2-15pm we'll mooch off to the ground, Get into my seat at 2-55ish, K Off 3-00pm and my support starts.

Mel Morris has got my support 100%, He may have made some bad choices in his tenure, But I feel as though the EFL are being a little duplicitous in this, Clowns in Billy Smarts are better run than this bunch of no bodies, I don't give a rats what any other clubs supporters think about us, If they're having fits of laughter, Or having fun taking the kiss....so what, We'd do the same.

50+ years I've supported DCFC, Around 1400 games, Most likely spent a kings ransom supporting us, When I go away on holiday, I take my DCFC shirt with me, Why? because i'm born and bred in our town, I live and breethe Derby, I DO NOT get embarressed when stuff like this happens, It's out of my control.

I do not sing now not many in the North Stand do, If any chants against the EFL are sung i'll stick my best singing voice on.

 

[td_evans]

It should also be noted that the stadium (owned by Gellaw Newco 202) is essentially mortgaged with Rams Investment (Gabay) having a charge against it.

Now you would expect that the stadium was valued before that charge was granted, I wonder what the valuation was.

[Curtains]

46 minutes ago, Alpha said:

 

 

Don't worry about it mate. They aren't our friends. They are all rival clubs. We shouldn't be trying to please them.

All that matters is that we come out of this on the sunny side.

Whatever everyone is criticising about Derby is the exact thing we should be bragging about. None of the people who can judge us are going to be making noise on twitter, facebook or scribbling on the pages of some racist, xenophobic "news" paper. 

These testing times just help us unite really don't they?

Yes mate .

Ollie Pope just got his first Century for England which has cheered me up. 
 

Up the Rams 

[Gaspode]

When we bought our house the council tried to put us in a high council tax band - when we challenged this, they stated that their 'finger in the air' valuation of the property meant they were correct. I (politely) pointed out to them that the actual value of the house was what we had paid for it and therefore that should put us in the lower band  - when threatened with going through the appeals process, they eventually gave in and accepted the value to be the price paid, not their made up figure.

This is similar in that the value of the stadium is whatever the 3rd party paid for it (as signed off in the accounts) - just because the EFL (or Steve Gibson) don't like that does not make it wrong or in any way a fiddle. Fact is thet the FFP rules had a hole in them that allowed Mel to help his football club - the EFL may need to spend some time working out how this can be prevented in future, but they cannot punish us for something that was o.k. as the rules stated at the time without finding themeselves in court. I suspect the delay in a statement from Mel is while the lawyers work out how much Mel can sue them for and the compensation he's willing to accept for the EFL defaming him and the club....

[GenBr]

3 hours ago, Anon said:

What I find totally confusing is that, whilst we've spent money, we've never been the biggest spenders in the division. When you look over our transfers the Clement season is the only time we spent without recouping a similar figure in player sales. Sometimes you just have to tell other fans to go and duck themselves because they're being disingenuous ricks. For 5 years under Clough we operated on a relative shoestring and had people laughing about Derby having no money, the moment we have the temerity to spend in line with other big clubs at this level everybody starts whinging about us cheating.

I'm not a fan of our big spending model though. What's hurt us more than any of the fees are the inflated wages we've been paying to very ordinary players with massive egos. I'd be a damn sight happier if I'd never seen the likes of Butterfield, Johnson, Lawrence etc wearing the black and white.

The wages are our main problem really. As you mentioned we usually sell to buy apart from in one year.

We shouldnt really be trying to spend the same as the top spenders in this division. Its impossible without parachutes even if we have set Championship records for revenue in non parachute seasons. We need to spend within our own means and not look what others are doing. We could have spent well outside ffp and still come nowhere close to teams like Villa - their wage bill alone last season was more than all the money we spent on transfer fees since Nigel Clough.

[cheron85]

Just a quick thought here - FFP was supposed to protect clubs from being exposed by renegade owners spending loads and leaving the club in rotten debts before doing a runner with none of the liability falling on them

We have an owner who is prepared to take on MORE financial liability (ie, buying the ground and leasing back to us) and continually complains he can't put more of his own money in - And the EFL are going out of their way by (it seems) questioning decisions they ratified previously 

In the same season Bolton nearly drop out of the football league and Bury actually do - Both clubs which (as far as I'm aware) complied with FFP regulations

Doesn't that seem a bit odd?

I mean people keep talking about us 'breaching the spirit of FFP' with the ground sale - But the rule was to try and stop teams going bankrupt because of what owners had done - Which the EFL have singularly failed to do for Bolton and Bury - And they want to punish Morris for making himself more liable, which seems to me to be the very spirit of FFP

[Dethorn]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I haven't got a background in financials so it's highly likely that I'm missing something.

The sale of the stadium less the value of the stadium carried on the balance sheet will be the profit on disposal of asset

(going from what I have read on here)

The value of the Stadium on the Balance Sheet was £41M

The sale was £80M

Profit on disposal circa £39M

 

[Ghost of Clough]

Wages according to the group account (not just the club)
2018 - £46.9m (136% wages:revenue)
2017 - £33.1m (119% wages:revenue) - 10 months (roughly equivalent to £39.7m)
2016 - £35.5m

Transfers since the end of the 17/18 season*...
In - Waghorn, Marriott, Jozefzoon, Holmes, Evans, Malone, Shinnie, Bielilk, Rooney, Clarke, Hamer
Out - Vydra, Weimann, Shackell, Hanson, Jerome, Bent, Baird, Thomas, Bryson Butterfield, Pearce, Blackman, Nugent, Johnson, McAllister, Olsson

*not including those we signed and have left since.

I estimate wages to have dropped by roughly £8m, but with an increase of sponsorship for Rooney, we'll see the wages reaching more a sustainable level of 105% for this season. Anya will be leaving in the summer, and it's highly likely Thorne and Carson will too.. that'll take us below the 100% wages:revenue mark for the first time since Mel took over.