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Mackay - Rooney


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8 hours ago, sunnyhill60 said:

He had a lot of appearances for England but wasn't close to being our most prolific scorer. Just check Steve Bloomer and Harry Kane. As for best player we have ever seen, there have been far too many mediocre efforts for that. As for Mackay not playing for Scotland whilst with us, neither will Wayne fin Rooney play for England.

Mate, that's hilarious. It's not enough that he's Man Utd's and England's top scorer - he's just not 'prolific' enough?! You can pick just two or three players in the history of the game that are more prolific?! We're Derby County, not AC bleedin'-Milan! Rooney's record, in terms of goals, etc is beyond reproach. He's one of the best players of his generation. To say he was mediocre for England is hilarious because a) he wasn't and b) at least he played for England unlike the vast majority of our players of the last 20 years!

The comparison regarding Mackay was in terms of total number of caps, not in terms of whether they'll get any more. 

In my view (and according to the record books) Mackay was a very good player who had a massive impact on DCFC. Rooney is a great player who may or may not have a significant impact on DCFC. 

However, as you say, it's too early to properly compare their effect on Derby but you can't argue it's exciting that he could have such an impact and that's not to underplay Mackay's influence in any way.  

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6 hours ago, RamNut said:

22 caps for Scotland doesn’t make any sense at all.

to understand Mackay think stimac to the power of ten.

He was the a Football writers player of the year, at Derby, in the second division. 

He was joint winner with Tony Book from Man City iirc, but it wasn't as big a deal to achieve that then as it would be now with the quality of the Premier League and so few overseas players.

He certainly wasn't Stimac to the power of ten purely based on his play during his two years. In fact from a purely footballing perspective I'd say Stimac was better. But Igor was in his prime, Mackay was 4 or 5 years past his and was playing in a roll where his lack of pace couldn't be easily exploited. 
 

His contribution, massive though it was, came as much from elevating and driving the players round him as brilliant football. Stimac, Wright and Todd were all better overall players than he was at that stage imho. 

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11 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Er, where’s the champions league win? I’m off to support someone else if that ain’t included???

Its ok, but you'll have to wait until 2029 ..  ( V Juventus of course ) FRGS Knight

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21 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

Bloody hell he's played two games and everyone's creaming their knickers trying to compare two completely different type of players in different times and a completely different game to what it was then. 

The one similarity is it was a massive coup back then to get Dave from Spurs as it is now with Rooney .It looks like WR will have the impact we hoped he would and if and only if he is instrumental in getting us up could you start to compare him with DM .

I dont think I am comparing them as players Kev. Im saying the similarity is on experience and timing on coming in to help a bunch of young players. I do hope that the rest about winning titles etc is taken with the pinch of salt it was written with and the hope that miracles may happen to us once again someday. 

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1 minute ago, Raich Van Carter said:

Mate, that's hilarious. It's not enough that he's Man Utd's and England's top scorer - he's just not 'prolific' enough?! You can pick just two or three players in the history of the game that are more prolific?! We're Derby County, not AC bleedin'-Milan! Rooney's record, in terms of goals, etc is beyond reproach. He's one of the best players of his generation. To say he was mediocre for England is hilarious because a) he wasn't and b) at least he played for England unlike the vast majority of our players of the last 20 years!

The comparison regarding Mackay was in terms of total number of caps, not in terms of whether they'll get any more. 

In my view (and according to the record books) Mackay was a very good player who had a massive impact on DCFC. Rooney is a great player who may or may not have a significant impact on DCFC. 

However, as you say, it's too early to properly compare their effect on Derby but you can't argue it's exciting that he could have such an impact and that's not to underplay Mackay's influence in any way.  

 

2 minutes ago, Raich Van Carter said:

Mate, that's hilarious. It's not enough that he's Man Utd's and England's top scorer - he's just not 'prolific' enough?! You can pick just two or three players in the history of the game that are more prolific?! We're Derby County, not AC bleedin'-Milan! Rooney's record, in terms of goals, etc is beyond reproach. He's one of the best players of his generation. To say he was mediocre for England is hilarious because a) he wasn't and b) at least he played for England unlike the vast majority of our players of the last 20 years!

The comparison regarding Mackay was in terms of total number of caps, not in terms of whether they'll get any more. 

In my view (and according to the record books) Mackay was a very good player who had a massive impact on DCFC. Rooney is a great player who may or may not have a significant impact on DCFC. 

However, as you say, it's too early to properly compare their effect on Derby but you can't argue it's exciting that he could have such an impact and that's not to underplay Mackay's influence in any way.  

I think that sums it up. Dave Mackay was a really good player playing in a standard of football that is way behind the top level today. 
 

Wayne Rooney was a world class footballer for 15 + years whose only slight blemish was he never quite delivered in the major tournaments for England. At club level he was incredible. 

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13 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I am too young to have experienced the 70s unfortunately, so, a question...

Just how good was Dave Mackay?

I’ve watched Derby since 1964 and Dave Mackay had a real presence about him when he joined us.At Spurs he was revered and absolutely outstanding under Bill Nicholson.He was coming to the end of his career when he joined us,similar to Rooney,but the players all looked up to him .I never forget watching midweek games at the old Baseball Ground and walking back to town with mates and having drinks with him and Willie Carlin in the Irongate Vaults,which is now the Slug and Lettuce ! Try doing that now after a game!!

Great captain,hard as nails and kept every player on his toes.I read once he was voted in the top 20 players of all time,that’s how good he was.

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Mackay is way before my era, but the lack of Scotland games is a surprise when you read about just how important he was.

My only guess would be that it was because it was an era where footballers were paid modestly and there was no high-tech equipment to keep them at the top of their physical ability. On top of that I expect they would be driving to meet up with international squads rather than being flown everywhere.

14 of his caps came whilst at Hearts/the first year of his Tottenham career. Maybe he simply didn’t think it was beneficial to his career to play for Scotland when he lived in London?

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What's always surprised me is the high regard in which Rooney is held by other players. As a football fan I never felt he quite fulfilled his potential having burst onto the scene as a youngster with moments like his debut winning goal for Everton to end Arsenal's 30 game unbeaten run, or his Champions League debut hattrick for Man Utd. I guess I thought he was destined to lead England to World Cup glory. Instead, despite playing in three tournaments he's only managed one more goal than me at World Cups. 

Yet I know I've always missed something because everyone who actually plays the game sees him as a legend. They all want to impress him and play alongside him. And Derby finally have a golden generation of youngsters coming through who get to play with and learn from England and Man Utd's all-time leading scorer. 

It's a good comparison with Mackay, who I'm glad I was able to thank for the immense pleasure he brought me as a young kid. Rooney has the ability to do the same. And he still has big shoulders. We all wish we weren't starting the Rooney era so far down the table and it is oh so very early days, but we'd all be happy to have to hold on for a wild ride coming. We just need him to grab a dirty Leeds player by the scruff of the neck in the playoff final, so long as we're already four goals up with only a couple of minutes to go, so getting sent off doesn't matter! 

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3 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

He was joint winner with Tony Book from Man City iirc, but it wasn't as big a deal to achieve that then as it would be now with the quality of the Premier League and so few overseas players.

No other player outside the top flight has ever won it.

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3 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

He certainly wasn't Stimac to the power of ten purely based on his play during his two years. In fact from a purely footballing perspective I'd say Stimac was better.

I think Brian clough and Roy Mac might disagree.

i love that bit of film where Brian clough is introducing Colin Todd after paying a record fee for a defender, and he says “ oh he’s not as a good as a Dave” .

Roy Mac also states that Mackay was the best he ever played with. And that includes numerous greats including bobby Moore. 

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16 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I think Brian clough and Roy Mac might disagree.

i love that bit of film where Brian clough is introducing Colin Todd after paying a record fee for a defender, and he says “ oh he’s not as a good as a Dave” .

Roy Mac also states that Mackay was the best he ever played with. And that includes numerous greats including bobby Moore. 

Well there you go. We now need to get Roy Mac in the current squad so he can compare Rooney to Mackay.

Then this thread can go away.

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3 hours ago, nogbad van 50 said:

I’ve watched Derby since 1964 and Dave Mackay had a real presence about him when he joined us.At Spurs he was revered and absolutely outstanding under Bill Nicholson.He was coming to the end of his career when he joined us,similar to Rooney,but the players all looked up to him .I never forget watching midweek games at the old Baseball Ground and walking back to town with mates and having drinks with him and Willie Carlin in the Irongate Vaults,which is now the Slug and Lettuce ! Try doing that now after a game!!

Great captain,hard as nails and kept every player on his toes.I read once he was voted in the top 20 players of all time,that’s how good he was.

I think you have hit on a very important part there Noggy. Keeping players on their toes is a huge similarity between the two. You can see clearly already that Rooney is into them. Eric Steele who coached him previously said on RD that he likes to get around all the players in the dressing room pre match. We saw that with Mackay. Huge influence without the ball as well as with. Complimenting and bollocking when needed. 

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17 hours ago, RamNut said:

It is a valid comparison. Not sure that wayne is quite as good as Dave ??

the young players are comparable with gems like McGovern and robson

not sure we've quite got a les green, a mcfarland or a hector though. 

Also lets not forget that Mackay was not part of our league champions team he left in 1971.We need to wait until Rooney has played for us a season or so.Isaw every home match Mackay played yes he was very good playing in as team  of very good players.Hopefully we will be able to say the same about Rooney at the back end of next season But in any case comparing them is like comparing Bloomer with Matthews both geniuses but playing different rolls

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1 hour ago, RamNut said:

I think Brian clough and Roy Mac might disagree.

i love that bit of film where Brian clough is introducing Colin Todd after paying a record fee for a defender, and he says “ oh he’s not as a good as a Dave” .

Roy Mac also states that Mackay was the best he ever played with. And that includes numerous greats including bobby Moore. 

Toddy was the single best player I have ever seen. I didn't see Dave play for Spurs, so it would be rash of me to say he wasn't as good, but imho, he wasn't even close to Toddy when he was at Derby. Having said that, they were entirely different types of players, so it's not a far comparison.

As somebody else pointed out, Rooney was a world class player for an extensive period of time and at a time when it's a lot harder to achieve that.

The Derby teams that won the First Division titles would be totally out of their depth against the top teams in Europe now, it's a far more technical game at the top level.

And that was one of the things that separated Todd (and Roy Mac) from most defenders at that time, his technical ability as well as his speed.

I'm not saying Mackay didn't have that and I'm not saying he wouldn't have been a top class player if he were playing now, I have no idea.

Pele said that Bobby Moore was the best player he ever played against. Roy Mac said Dave Mackay was better. My money would be on possibly the greatest player of all time over the starstruck kid who has just been told he's playing alongside a legend. But again, I dunno, it's all subjective.

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18 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I am too young to have experienced the 70s unfortunately, so, a question...

Just how good was Dave Mackay?

Immense.......simply a wonderful footballer and leader of men ....a true General

And a nice guy too

 

 

 

 

 

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