Academy Players

[Millenniumram]

Think I know which player you’re referring to, and I’m with you. Think some people are too quick to judge young players. Most of the youngsters who have featured this season, perhaps Knight excepted, haven’t had enough minutes to really show us what they’re capable of yet. And that’s fine, they’re all still very young and we shouldn’t be expecting them to all by playing week in, week out yet. But you can’t have any real idea how good young players are/ will be from such limited minutes. So to make a judgement they’ll never make it seems very harsh, even to me!

By all means comment on their performances in isolation in a single match as you would any other player, that’s fine- the young lads certainly haven’t played brilliant every single game! But you can’t expect them to, so you can’t judge the poor lads on just the odd game. None can be written off yet imo. Once they’ve had a fair few games you might start to have an idea of whether they’ll make it or not, but before then only the manager who sees them in training will have much clue.

[TigerTedd]

I think there’s a lot of romantics in the world, who kind of expect these kids to score a screamer on their debut, Roy of the rovers style, and never look back from that point. 

Doesn’t really work like that in the real world. Although it is ironic that we have the exception that proves the role playing for us.

[TommyPowell]

All players are given playing instructions so what qualifies you to judge that a player wasnt playing to Cocus instructions?

[TommyPowell]

9 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Think I know which player you’re referring to, and I’m with you. Think some people are too quick to judge young players. Most of the youngsters who have featured this season, perhaps Knight excepted, haven’t had enough minutes to really show us what they’re capable of yet. And that’s fine, they’re all still very young and we shouldn’t be expecting them to all by playing week in, week out yet. But you can’t have any real idea how good young players are/ will be from such limited minutes. So to make a judgement they’ll never make it seems very harsh, even to me!

By all means comment on their performances in isolation in a single match as you would any other player, that’s fine- the young lads certainly haven’t played brilliant every single game! But you can’t expect them to, so you can’t judge the poor lads on just the odd game. None can be written off yet imo. Once they’ve had a fair few games you might start to have an idea of whether they’ll make it or not, but before then only the manager who sees them in training will have much clue.

At last I totally agree with you

[SSD]

If the academy players keep this up, Mel will happily see a return on his £25 million investment into the youth set up.

Best decision the bloke has made since running the club.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

1 hour ago, SouthStandDan said:

If the academy players keep this up, Mel will happily see a return on his £25 million investment into the youth set up.

Best decision the bloke has made since running the club.

Apart from appointing Cocu to bring the youth through like he is doing.

Oh, and signing WR32

[Dimmu]

11 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Think I know which player you’re referring to, and I’m with you. Think some people are too quick to judge young players. Most of the youngsters who have featured this season, perhaps Knight excepted, haven’t had enough minutes to really show us what they’re capable of yet. And that’s fine, they’re all still very young and we shouldn’t be expecting them to all by playing week in, week out yet. But you can’t have any real idea how good young players are/ will be from such limited minutes. So to make a judgement they’ll never make it seems very harsh, even to me!

By all means comment on their performances in isolation in a single match as you would any other player, that’s fine- the young lads certainly haven’t played brilliant every single game! But you can’t expect them to, so you can’t judge the poor lads on just the odd game. None can be written off yet imo. Once they’ve had a fair few games you might start to have an idea of whether they’ll make it or not, but before then only the manager who sees them in training will have much clue.

Question is:

Kieran Dowell turned 22 couple months. Is he old enough to be judged, when he was played out of position and with limited minutes?

BTW, he is younger than Max Lowe.

[Millenniumram]

Just now, Dimmu said:

Question is:

Kieran Dowell turned 22 couple months. Is he old enough to be judged, when he was played out of position and with limited minutes?

BTW, he is younger than Max Lowe.

He’s played enough games at this level to tell whether he’s good enough for me. He’s isnt. I’d dispute he was played out of position as well, maybe in the first couple of games, but he played in his natural 10 a few times and made no impact. Lowe on the other hand has shown himself to have the potential to be a much better player, at the same age with less games to make an impression. He’s a much better talent.

[Dimmu]

Just now, Millenniumram said:

He’s played enough games at this level to tell whether he’s good enough for me. He’s isnt. I’d dispute he was played out of position as well, maybe in the first couple of games, but he played in his natural 10 a few times and made no impact. Lowe on the other hand has shown himself to have the potential to be a much better player, at the same age with less games to make an impression. He’s a much better talent.

So you think he didn't do well at Forest playing as a attacking midfielder?

Jees, you are hard to please.

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

So you think he didn't do well at Forest playing as a attacking midfielder?

Jees, you are hard to please.

Don't Forest fans say he had a 3 month spell at the start of his loan when he couldn't stop scoring but general play was fairly week, and then was just awful after that. Also didn't impress when at Sheff Utd.

[Millenniumram]

16 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

So you think he didn't do well at Forest playing as a attacking midfielder?

Jees, you are hard to please.

He did for a little while, then was dropped for pretty much the whole second half of the season I believe. Was also ineffective at Sheff United, and poor for the england U21s.

[mwram1973]

18 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

I think he could do with a loan to play with the 'big boys' for 6 months, like with Lowe?

It's a good point and would do him well i'm sure, having said that, if we're writing this season off with regards of promotion, wouldn't he be better off playing here and developing under cocu?.

Just an idea, although if we are still nibbling at the hope of reaching the playoffs then yes, loan him out

[Dimmu]

Just now, Ghost of Clough said:

Don't Forest fans say he had a 3 month spell at the start of his loan when he couldn't stop scoring but general play was fairly week, and then was just awful after that. Also didn't impress when at Sheff Utd.

 

Just now, Millenniumram said:

He did for a little while, then was dropped for pretty much the whole second half of the season I believe. Was also ineffective at Sheff United, and poor for the england U21s.

Good lesson this, never trust a Forest fan.

43 appearances and scored regularly, except one hattrick.

And here is another example, why you shouldn't trust their views:

Kieran Dowell is an incredible talent

Forest have had some wonderful midfielders over the years, the likes of John McGovern, Nigel Clough and Roy Keane to name but three.

Kieran Dowell is something special and you can see why he’s so highly rated at Everton.

There’s no histrionics with him, he just plays the game as it should be played and has such a fine football brain that will take him to the very highest level.

Give it a couple of years, he may well be talked about as one of the top midfielders in England.

[Ghost of Clough]

31 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

 

Good lesson this, never trust a Forest fan.

43 appearances and scored regularly, except one hattrick.

And here is another example, why you shouldn't trust their views:

Kieran Dowell is an incredible talent

Forest have had some wonderful midfielders over the years, the likes of John McGovern, Nigel Clough and Roy Keane to name but three.

Kieran Dowell is something special and you can see why he’s so highly rated at Everton.

There’s no histrionics with him, he just plays the game as it should be played and has such a fine football brain that will take him to the very highest level.

Give it a couple of years, he may well be talked about as one of the top midfielders in England.

Almost all of his goal contributions occurred in the 3 months from 30th September to 23rd December (10), with only 1 goal and an assist before this period and 1 goal after (mid Jan).
59 minutes played in the final 8 games of the season.
Then went to Sheff Utd for the second half of last season scoring 2 and assisting 1 in 16 games. .

Seems to backup what @Millenniumram and myself said

[Dimmu]

Just now, Ghost of Clough said:

Almost all of his goal contributions occurred in the 3 months from 30th September to 23rd December (10), with only 1 goal and an assist before this period and 1 goal after (mid Jan).
59 minutes played in the final 8 games of the season.
Then went to Sheff Utd for the second half of last season scoring 2 and assisting 1 in 16 games. .

Seems to backup what @Millenniumram and myself said

You clearly got better stats available than me so fair enough.

But back to the original question @Millenniumram:

Kieran Dowell turned 22 couple months. Is he old enough to be judged, when he was played out of position and with limited minutes?

 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

Anyway, the last time I checked, Dowell didn’t come from our academy and this topic was how good ours is and not how crap other players are ?

[Millenniumram]

15 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

You clearly got better stats available than me so fair enough.

But back to the original question @Millenniumram:

Kieran Dowell turned 22 couple months. Is he old enough to be judged, when he was played out of position and with limited minutes?

 

As I say, yes he is. Not written off as never having any chance of making it at this level (this loan at Wigan is probably his big chance to prove that), but he’s played more than enough minutes at this level, for us and other clubs, to make a judgement as to whether he’s any good. Whittaker has played about 5 games, that’s not enough time to make a judgement. Dowell has played about 50, theres more than enough evidence to go off to suggest hes poo.

[Ramchope]

I've seen Whittaker live twice, away at Fulham and yesterday at Palace. When he came on against Fulham he changed the game for us somewhat, he wanted to get on the ball, he was running at players with pace of which we sorely lacked throughout the rest of the 75 minutes. I was really impressed as I had to be honest not heard a great deal about him before this game. He performed fine at Palace, some nice touch and go's but didn't hug the byline or link that well with Bogle, it seemed he wanted to drift in field more and looked less confident when on the ball than against Fulham. His substitution for Holmes was the correct call. 

I think he will do a decent job as an impact sub for the rest of the season if we fail to bring in any wide players this January, from what I have seen he certainly can be of more value right now than what Dowell or Josefzoon have proven to offer.  

 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Ramchope said:

I've seen Whittaker live twice, away at Fulham and yesterday at Palace. When he came on against Fulham he changed the game for us somewhat, he wanted to get on the ball, he was running at players with pace of which we sorely lacked throughout the rest of the 75 minutes. I was really impressed as I had to be honest not heard a great deal about him before this game. He performed fine at Palace, some nice touch and go's but didn't hug the byline or link that well with Bogle, it seemed he wanted to drift in field more and looked less confident when on the ball than against Fulham. His substitution for Holmes was the correct call. 

I think he will do a decent job as an impact sub for the rest of the season if we fail to bring in any wide players this January, from what I have seen he certainly can be of more value right now than what Dowell or Josefzoon have proven to offer.  

 

Palace's game plan seemed to be to mark our 3 forward players out of the game. With Lawrence and Whittaker tucking in, it gave Bogle and Malone acres of space to run in to. Both wide forwards linked play up well but didn't have much space to run in to due to the tight marking. It was Whittaker who played the ball out to Bogle to for the goal.
In the few games he has played, I'm struggling to remember him giving away the ball cheaply. I do think he needs to add more aggression to his game both in closing down and driving in to the box with and without the ball - this'll likely come when he feels more comfortable playing at this level as evidenced by him stepping up to the U18s and then the U23s previously.

16/17 - 1 goal in 10 U18 apps.
17/18 - 10 goals and 1 assist in 20 U18 apps (5 goals in his final 3 games). 1 assist in 2 U23 apps
18/19 - 20 goals and 12 assists in 22 U18 apps. 0 in 5 U23 apps.
19/20 - 10 goals and 5 assists in 9 U19/23 apps. 0 in 12 first team apps (315 mins)

[RamNut]

Um....it’s surprising how few u23 games, Whittaker has played. He is obviously highly rated.

Reminds me of Kanu so i assume he must have huge feet.