The Politics Thread 2020

[uttoxram75]

53 minutes ago, cstand said:

The normal everyday person is fed up of petty point scoring over so called culture wars.

Boris now has a Brexit supporting chancellor so will strengthen his position when negotiating with the EU because he needs the full support of his cabinet to convince the EU we are prepared for WTO rules if necessary. 

We seem to be at opposite ends of the political spectrum mate although I suspect if we sat over a pint we’d probably agree over more than we disagree.

The normal, everyday person is not bothered about the pedantic stuff we argue about on here.

Were far more worried about the murderous cuts to the social care system that is killing thousands of people my parents age, the disgusting lack of compassion of the Universal Credit euthanasia project to kill hundreds of thousands of poor buggers who are disabled or fell on hard times.

 But hey, culture wars, I’m going to have to google that because I really haven’t got a clue what it means.

The only war I can see is the war against austerity, the war against the hedge fund billionaires who want to destroy any semblance of a caring society.

Bamfords like Johnson, Cummings and Farage hate and fear normal everyday people in case they realise who’s actually responsible for the slow decline into poverty and misery that millions of us face in one of the richest countries on earth. 

[1of4]

1 hour ago, cstand said:

The normal everyday person is fed up of petty point scoring over so called culture wars.

Boris now has a Brexit supporting chancellor so will strengthen his position when negotiating with the EU because he needs the full support of his cabinet to convince the EU we are prepared for WTO rules if necessary. 

Johnson may be willing to let the UK trade under WTO rules. But to say the country is prepared to actually trade under WTO rules is a very different proposition. Wheres the infrastructure that will be needed, just to to get a few lorries through a customs check point.

[uttoxram75]

6 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Any evidence that it was this unelected advisor telling the chancellor he had to sack all his staff?

 

No evidence, just a general understanding that the unelected advisor is a total Bamford that would destroy the UK's sense of fair play to ensure vast untaxed profits for his hedge fund and Russian mafia backers.

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, cstand said:

The normal everyday person is fed up of petty point scoring over so called culture wars.

Boris now has a Brexit supporting chancellor so will strengthen his position when negotiating with the EU because he needs the full support of his cabinet to convince the EU we are prepared for WTO rules if necessary. 

You do realise I am taking the P out of 'your side' who keep on banging on about identity politics and culture wars etc and also think that Democrats/Labour lost the last elections because of these mostly imagined things by right wing sites/people. If only the left could be more offensive to minorities, then they could get power back!

It helpfully changes the conversation from the dire record of the Tories to what Diana Abbot once said, or someone holding a different opinion on trans rights.

It also means any reasonable leftish policies that could benefit the majority of people (nationalising rail, energy price caps, mansion tax, higher inheritance tax for the filthy rich, reduced tax for low earners, stop privatising the NHS etc etc) can all be passed off as 'loonie left' because they believe in gay rights.

Sorry, gay rights, I thought it was the 80s and early 90s then, when the loonie left of that period were concerned with the discrimination of gay people and terrible laws like Section 28 and banning homosexuals in the military. Things our current, liberal PM was pro keeping. Turns out those loonie lefties were right and now nearly everyone believes gay people should not be discriminated against.

What has identity politics ever done for me (straight, white male) apart from protect friends and family who aren't white, straight and male?

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

He is relatively inexperienced in ministerial duties. There is a "pecking order" whereby you serve time as a junior minister and usually as a parliamentary under secretary to a minister. And then not all ministers are in cabinet. 

 

Since rishi sunk was only elected as an mp in 2015 he has only served at a couple of these levels for c12 months instead of the more usual several years in different departments. 

In the cabinet pecking order, chancellor is one of the big 4 out of about 23. So it's some going to get that on the basis of a few months in a couple of relatively junior roles. As he has never been a minister before he has not managed a department budget. This is the basic unit of government power.

The suspicions are that he will be a patsy for Johnson and Cummings. Who will then not hesitate to throw him under a bus if it all goes tits up.

This times a million. Surely anyone regardless of political side can see this is a very unorthodox decision at best.

The fact that the sacked chancellor has come out and said he resigned as he was told to sack all his aides makes it sound petty and pathetic. This must be setting of alarm bells, if they weren't already going off bigtime already.

My guess also is that Johnson wants to cut taxes and spend big to keep everyone happy. For 6 months.

Javid told him that is economically reckless, but Johnson couldn't give a F about consequences as he is a spoilt brat who has always got his own way. Maybe he'll be sending some heavies around to Javid's house. He has form.

[G STAR RAM]

7 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

The suspicions are that he will be a patsy for Johnson and Cummings. Who will then not hesitate to throw him under a bus if it all goes tits up.

Let's be honest, this is going to be the general narrative for the next 4 years at least.

Everything that happens will be Cummings idea.

Every good thing that Johnson does will have been a Corbyn idea and will leave all Conservatives spitting feathers.

Labour supporters may as well just do one generic post now and ask people to refer back to it every time that Johnson is in the news.

[G STAR RAM]

7 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

No evidence, just a general understanding that the unelected advisor is a total Bamford that would destroy the UK's sense of fair play to ensure vast untaxed profits for his hedge fund and Russian mafia backers.

Some big claims there!

[Van der MoodHoover]

44 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Let's be honest, this is going to be the general narrative for the next 4 years at least.

Everything that happens will be Cummings idea.

Every good thing that Johnson does will have been a Corbyn idea and will leave all Conservatives spitting feathers.

Labour supporters may as well just do one generic post now and ask people to refer back to it every time that Johnson is in the news.

No, policy differences are the general narrative. 

This is idiosyncratic. 

It is about the capture of the organisms of state by individuals who have not been elected and who may choose to pursue ideology over policy.

This should be worthy of interest and intelligent debate without it being about left, right or centre.

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

No, policy differences are the general narrative. 

This is idiosyncratic. 

It is about the capture of the organisms of state by individuals who have not been elected and who may choose to pursue ideology over policy.

This should be worthy of interest and intelligent debate without it being about left, right or centre.

Yes that is fair comment of course.

But already we are seeing everything attributed to Cummins based on very little other than people dont like him because what has been said about him in the press.

[King Kevin]

There has been more discord going back over history than harmony between Chancellors and Prime Ministers . Blair /Brown ,May / Hammond,Thatcher /Lawson etc etc .

At such a important  point in our future you can't afford another disconnect and have someone working against you .Having said that you do need other opinions other than your own .The buck stops with Boris.

[G STAR RAM]

9 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

There has been more discord going back over history than harmony between Chancellors and Prime Ministers . Blair /Brown ,May / Hammond,Thatcher /Lawson etc etc .

At such a important  point in our future you can't afford another disconnect and have someone working against you .Having said that you do need other opinions other than your own .The buck stops with Boris.

Yep. It's only a couple of weeks ago that we were being told that Johnson was now accountable for everything and had no excuses.

Within a couple of weeks the press have managed to get people to change their narrative to Cummins being responsible for everything.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yep. It's only a couple of weeks ago that we were being told that Johnson was now accountable for everything and had no excuses.

Within a couple of weeks the press have managed to get people to change their narrative to Cummins being responsible for everything.

Johnson is accountable because he is the PM, Cummings is not ultimately accountable because he is an unelected advisor. That is half the reason people are so irritated by him because to many people it appears like he has too much influence.

I find it funny that (and I am not directing this directly at you G STAR RAM) a lot of the people I saw moaning about 'unelected people in the EU' are totally fine with someone like Cummings appearing to have a significant influence over our own Prime Minister. It's that sort of cognitive dissonance that I can't grasp at times.

[maxjam]

11 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Johnson is accountable because he is the PM, Cummings is not ultimately accountable because he is an unelected advisor. That is half the reason people are so irritated by him because to many people it appears like he has too much influence.

I find it funny that (and I am not directing this directly at you G STAR RAM) a lot of the people I saw moaning about 'unelected people in the EU' are totally fine with someone like Cummings appearing to have a significant influence over our own Prime Minister. It's that sort of cognitive dissonance that I can't grasp at times.

Haven't we always had political advisors though?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_adviser_(UK)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/aug/19/davidkelly.uk

At least you can get rid of them at the next election if the advice is crap!

[G STAR RAM]

15 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Johnson is accountable because he is the PM, Cummings is not ultimately accountable because he is an unelected advisor. That is half the reason people are so irritated by him because to many people it appears like he has too much influence.

I find it funny that (and I am not directing this directly at you G STAR RAM) a lot of the people I saw moaning about 'unelected people in the EU' are totally fine with someone like Cummings appearing to have a significant influence over our own Prime Minister. It's that sort of cognitive dissonance that I can't grasp at times.

Has everyone forgotten that Alistair Campbell existed all of a sudden?

Show me the mechanism for getting rid of the unelected EU leaders.

If Johnson takes Cummings advice and it is detrimental to the country then the Conservatives can be voted out at the next General Election.

You're comparing apples with pears on this one.

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes that is fair comment of course.

But already we are seeing everything attributed to Cummins based on very little other than people dont like him because what has been said about him in the press.

His own words are freely available. There's no need to assume people can't do their own research.

https://dominiccummings.com/on-the-eu-referendum/

I especially like the bit about the referendum not being seen as final.

And there's the stuff about politicians and their superficial bluffing. There's a lot where his contempt for elected politicians comes through.

Anyway, can't we be allowed to have a little conspiracy theory? The right has all the best ones - moon landings, space denial, flat earth, 9/11, deep state and so on.

[AndyinLiverpool]

17 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Johnson is accountable because he is the PM, Cummings is not ultimately accountable because he is an unelected advisor. That is half the reason people are so irritated by him because to many people it appears like he has too much influence.

I find it funny that (and I am not directing this directly at you G STAR RAM) a lot of the people I saw moaning about 'unelected people in the EU' are totally fine with someone like Cummings appearing to have a significant influence over our own Prime Minister. It's that sort of cognitive dissonance that I can't grasp at times.

Don't forget that one of Johnson's first acts after the election was to put two unelected people - Morgan and Goldsmith - into his cabinet.

Tories have always found democracy a bit of a hindrance.

[Angry Ram]

9 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Johnson may be willing to let the UK trade under WTO rules. But to say the country is prepared to actually trade under WTO rules is a very different proposition. Wheres the infrastructure that will be needed, just to to get a few lorries through a customs check point.

The infrastructure is there..

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

His own words are freely available. There's no need to assume people can't do their own research.

https://dominiccummings.com/on-the-eu-referendum/

I especially like the bit about the referendum not being seen as final.

And there's the stuff about politicians and their superficial bluffing. There's a lot where his contempt for elected politicians comes through.

Anyway, can't we be allowed to have a little conspiracy theory? The right has all the best ones - moon landings, space denial, flat earth, 9/11, deep state and so on.

I accept that there will be some that have researched him but I believe that the majority of the narrative is driven by the media.

I mean we have already got people quoting that Cummings has sacked Javid for not getting rid of his advisers,  how can they have possibly had the chance to research the facts on this?

I've not yet seen any quote from Javid stating this but apologies if there is one out there in the public domain.

Do we have a problem with his contempt for elected politicians? I thought most of us have had this for a long time?

No idea what you are on about in your last sentence I'm afraid.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

But already we are seeing everything attributed to Cummins based on very little other than people dont like him because what has been said about him in the press.

Agreed - which is why I linked to his blog, so people can see for themselves

I'll probably be expelled for this but I'm not 100% against everything he stands for. In some respects he's right to want to question the way the civil service works. He's right to question some of the archaic mechanisms of government that stunt progress

My problem with him is that he's just one guy and none of this can possibly be resolved by the thoughts or ideas of an individual - elected or not. The fact he seems to be wielding so much power (enough to force the Chancellor of the Exchequer  to resign!) should worry everybody

[AndyinLiverpool]

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I accept that there will be some that have researched him but I believe that the majority of the narrative is driven by the media.

I mean we have already got people quoting that Cummings has sacked Javid for not getting rid of his advisers,  how can they have possibly had the chance to research the facts on this?

I've not yet seen any quote from Javid stating this but apologies if there is one out there in the public domain.

Do we have a problem with his contempt for elected politicians? I thought most of us have had this for a long time?

No idea what you are on about in your last sentence I'm afraid.

Ah, you believe. Should we not demand evidence in the same way that you do?