The Politics Thread 2020

[Sith Happens]

2 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Not picking a fight but people who have lost folk and are angry might conceivably think this and the thought alone wouldn't justify the label of "disgusting".

Brainless certainly,  for any person representing others.

yeah probably not going to agree on that. to say someone deserves to be fighting for their life is appalling.

obviously just my opinion. 

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

32 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

yeah probably not going to agree on that. to say someone deserves to be fighting for their life is appalling.

obviously just my opinion. 

 

 

No worries. All just opinions. Nobody has a  monopoly on "right"-ness.

[1967Ram]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/07/foreign-nationals-nhs-indefinite-leave-remain-coronavirus-covid-19

Seems fair enough to me.

[Van der MoodHoover]

40 minutes ago, 1967Ram said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/07/foreign-nationals-nhs-indefinite-leave-remain-coronavirus-covid-19

Seems fair enough to me.

Although the article said "cross party" group of mps, none were from the conservative party - or at least none named.

I wouldn't trust Priti Patel to do a sensible thing, much less a morally correct thing though. 

[FindernRam]

15 hours ago, Paul71 said:

wow just wow

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/07/derbyshire-mayor-apologises-for-saying-johnson-deserves-coronavirus

Quite apart from the appalling sentiment, maybe said in the heat of the moment, followed by a half hearted apology, effectively nothing has changed.

Yes the Labour whip has been removed, but she remains in post, presumably her voting will still be along party lines, and in due course she will be quietly readmitted back into the fold.

I confess that sometimes my thoughts about some individuals are less than charitable, but I would never put them into print, without pause for thought. And that is the point here, she got mad and exercised terrible judgement. Just like the US navy Captain-he got fired!

[i-Ram]

Would any Remainers like to give me their current thoughts on how the EU are coming together to serve their people. No whataboutery please; let’s try to stick to the question for a post or two.

BBC Extracts in the last 24 hours:

EU finance ministers said on Wednesday still haven’t agreed an economic response. Northern EU member states like the Netherlands and Germany fear they’ll end up carrying other countries’ debts, while hard-hit nations in the south like Italy and Spain say not enough is being done 

Mauro Ferrari, the EU’s top scientist, dramatically quit last night because of the bloc’s response to the virus, saying he had “lost faith” in the EU.

The EU Taskforce set up to coordinate supplies of ventilators, PPE, masks, etc., as of yesterday had still not delivered one piece of equipment to a member state.

[GboroRam]

12 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Would any Remainers like to give me their current thoughts on how the EU are coming together to serve their people. No whataboutery please; let’s try to stick to the question for a post or two.

BBC Extracts in the last 24 hours:

EU finance ministers said on Wednesday still haven’t agreed an economic response. Northern EU member states like the Netherlands and Germany fear they’ll end up carrying other countries’ debts, while hard-hit nations in the south like Italy and Spain say not enough is being done 

Mauro Ferrari, the EU’s top scientist, dramatically quit last night because of the bloc’s response to the virus, saying he had “lost faith” in the EU.

The EU Taskforce set up to coordinate supplies of ventilators, PPE, masks, etc., as of yesterday had still not delivered one piece of equipment to a member state.

It's a crisis. Every member state will be pushed for maximising resource the EU provides them while minimising their exposure to additional costs.

It's going to be a tough time, but effectively they will need to work out they could benefit by trying to work together. Unfortunately the costs will disproportionately be expected to be covered by the more prosperous nations - but basically that's the point of the EU. It will fuel some anti EU sentiment. 

Crisis isn't limited to nation states. The EU will be as hit as anywhere, maybe more so because there will be more finger pointing. 

[Comrade 86]

10 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Although the article said "cross party" group of mps, none were from the conservative party - or at least none named.

I wouldn't trust Priti Patel to do a sensible thing, much less a morally correct thing though. 

I think prior to Covid-19 there were around 43,000 unfilled posts within the NHS, despite well over 100,000 foreign nationals helping to plug the gaps. After the virus subsides, there'll doubtless be rather more. I think the meagre wages our NHS staff are paid, the grim working conditions and lack of basic PPE during the Covid-19 outbreak, have all been under sharp focus in what are admittedly unusual circumstances but unusual or not, this focus will not elicit a surge in fresh applications.

It would seem that currently, Priti Patel is unwilling to do anything to address this. As things stand, foreign nationals working within the NHS will be kept around long enough to see us through the first wave of the virus before being unceremoniously ushered out of the country, with a pithy 'thank you for your service' ringing hollow in their ears. 

The 12 month extension for those whose visas expire before October is horribly divisive as those workers whose visas expire in November or later will presumably then be expected to get off lively having served their purpose. A greater disincentive is hard to imagine and hardly speaks to a scenario whereby lessons have been learned.

At risk of being 'political' on the politics thread, if the Tories are genuinely seeking cross-party collaboration in order to help beat this virus, then they should take the rough with the smooth and cede to the will of other parties and, I believe, the nation as a whole and extend visas indefinitely for any foreign national who has risked their life and those of their own families, in order to keep us Brits safe. Why? Because they've bloody well earned it and in spades IMO. Anything less would simply heap shame on the UK and rightly so, as well as leaving the NHS even further stretched beyond capacity should Covid-19 return in a second or third wave.

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I think prior to Covid-19 there were around 43,000 unfilled posts within the NHS, despite well over 100,000 foreign nationals helping to plug the gaps. After the virus subsides, there'll doubtless be rather more. I think the meagre wages our NHS staff are paid, the grim working conditions and lack of basic PPE during the Covid-19 outbreak, have all been under sharp focus in what are admittedly unusual circumstances but unusual or not, this focus will not elicit a surge in fresh applications.

It would seem that currently, Priti Patel is unwilling to do anything to address this. As things stand, foreign nationals working within the NHS will be kept around long enough to see us through the first wave of the virus before being unceremoniously ushered out of the country, with a pithy 'thank you for your service' ringing hollow in their ears. 

The 12 month extension for those whose visas expire before October is horribly divisive as those workers whose visas expire in November or later will presumably then be expected to get off lively having served their purpose. A greater disincentive is hard to imagine and hardly speaks to a scenario whereby lessons have been learned.

At risk of being 'political' on the politics thread, if the Tories are genuinely seeking cross-party collaboration in order to help beat this virus, then they should take the rough with the smooth and cede to the will of other parties and, I believe, the nation as a whole and extend visas indefinitely for any foreign national who has risked their life and those of their own families, in order to keep us Brits safe. Why? Because they've bloody well earned it and in spades IMO. Anything less would simply heap shame on the UK and rightly so, as well as leaving the NHS even further stretched beyond capacity should Covid-19 return in a second or third wave.

And if Keir Starmer is genuinely going to be "constructive" but "hold the government to account" what better place to start by bringing forward some sensible proposals that will force Priti Patel either into action or to make the case for inaction.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

 

[G STAR RAM]

16 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

Agreed.

Any profit making company should pay back any sort of relief taken from the government 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Agreed.

Any profit making company should pay back any sort of relief taken from the government 

 

Careful you old trot.......

...there's a school of thought argued by some that us proles should be grateful to companies for dividends paid as it helps our pension pots.

What's that I hear you say? Gov gives cash -> business declares div -> public has more cash -> gov gets higher taxes from public

round and round the money goes........?

[Tamworthram]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Agreed.

Any profit making company should pay back any sort of relief taken from the government 

 

Whilst benefiting from increased sales due to panic buying as well as the rates relief from the government, we mustn't ignore the fact that Tesco's have taken on something like 45,000 extra staff over the the last two or three weeks. Whilst no doubt low paid, they have provided employment/extra employment for an awful lot of people which, depending on how much they earn, will ultimately generate NI and income tax.  Also, who benefits from the dividends? Yes, of course some fat cats but also members of the public who happen to own a few shares or who's pension schemes invest in such companies. 

It's too easy to bash the big corporations sometimes.

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Whilst benefiting from increased sales due to panic buying as well as the rates relief from the government, we mustn't ignore the fact that Tesco's have taken on something like 45,000 extra staff over the the last two or three weeks. Whilst no doubt low paid, they have provided employment/extra employment for an awful lot of people which, depending on how much they earn, will ultimately generate NI and income tax.  Also, who benefits from the dividends? Yes, of course some fat cats but also members of the public who happen to own a few shares or who's pension schemes invest in such companies. 

It's too easy to bash the big corporations sometimes.

I'm not bashing the big corporations.

Tesco wont have furloughed any of their staff surely?

I am talking about any company that has taken Government grants yet are still turning out profits.

[Wolfie]

36 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm not bashing the big corporations.

Tesco wont have furloughed any of their staff surely?

I am talking about any company that has taken Government grants yet are still turning out profits.

Quite right. The government interventions are supposed to be a lifeline, to keep businesses going in this period.

I don't shop at Tesco but I've noticed many of the normal offers I see on Ocado and in Sainsburys are no longer there. I find it hard to believe that Tescos haven't effectively put their prices up also.

[GboroRam]

38 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm not bashing the big corporations.

Tesco wont have furloughed any of their staff surely?

I am talking about any company that has taken Government grants yet are still turning out profits.

They will be one of the winners in this. Are we supposed to feel sorry that demand is so high that they have had to take on extra delivery drivers? That they can't buy in stock fast enough to keep it on the shelves? Possibly furloughing unnecessary staff and the taxpayers will pay 80% of the wages? 

I've got loads of sympathy for business right now. Not much for the supermarkets though. They must be coining it in. Hence massive dividends. 

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm not bashing the big corporations.

Tesco wont have furloughed any of their staff surely?

I am talking about any company that has taken Government grants yet are still turning out profits.

Well you are. You agreed with a comment criticising Tesco's.

I doubt they've furloughed anyone but have taken on extra staff to cope with demand and those of their own staff unable to work. You could argue that, had they not benefited from the business rates holiday they may not have taken on the extra staff. The dividends due to be paid relate to the period up to February 29th and therefore does not relate to any profits they may be making during the crisis. 

[A Ram for All Seasons]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

Whilst benefiting from increased sales due to panic buying as well as the rates relief from the government, we mustn't ignore the fact that Tesco's have taken on something like 45,000 extra staff over the the last two or three weeks. Whilst no doubt low paid, they have provided employment/extra employment for an awful lot of people which, depending on how much they earn, will ultimately generate NI and income tax.  Also, who benefits from the dividends? Yes, of course some fat cats but also members of the public who happen to own a few shares or who's pension schemes invest in such companies. 

It's too easy to bash the big corporations sometimes.

The £600 million  from the taxpayer is enough to fund 45,000 jobs on the minimum wage for a whole year, not just a couple of weeks. The taxpayer will also be paying the interest on the bonds that are issued to pay back the £600 million for years to come.

Please tell us why it's a good idea to use emergency funds to pay for a windfall to shareholders.

[Tamworthram]

26 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

They will be one of the winners in this. Are we supposed to feel sorry that demand is so high that they have had to take on extra delivery drivers? That they can't buy in stock fast enough to keep it on the shelves? Possibly furloughing unnecessary staff and the taxpayers will pay 80% of the wages? 

I've got loads of sympathy for business right now. Not much for the supermarkets though. They must be coining it in. Hence massive dividends. 

Are they asking for sympathy? They're just stating facts. They've had to take on staff and this is being financed by income from extra sales and the business rates holiday. Do you really think they're likely to have furloughed staff and then taken on more? They may have furloughed some none front line staff but there hasn't been any suggestion that they have from what I've seen. With regard to the size of the dividends (which relate to the period prior to the crisis by the way) don't forget this is a massive company with a large number of shares issued including to pension funds. 

[Tamworthram]

7 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

The £600 million  from the taxpayer is enough to fund 45,000 jobs on the minimum wage for a whole year, not just a couple of weeks. The taxpayer will also be paying the interest on the bonds that are issued to pay back the £600 million for years to come.

Please tell us why it's a good idea to use emergency funds to pay for a windfall to shareholders.

I think it will be more than a couple of weeks but you do make a good point. The emergency funds (business rates holiday in their case) is being used (along with the income from extra sales) to pay for these extra staff. The dividend relates to the period prior to the virus. 

Having said all of that, I can see the argument that any business (large or small) receiving support from the government should repay the benefit before issuing dividends or bonuses that relate profits earned during the period they receive the support.