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The Politics Thread 2020

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6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

@BriggRam 0 @Van der MoodHoover 6

Shame you had to waste your time replying to moronic posts like this, but good work.

Worth remembering though, the right wing papers will presumably try similar smears if Starmer suggests anything that might slightly dent the vast fortunes of corporate tax evaders or the mega rich. 

Being somewhat analytical by nature I like to try to find out what lies behind some of the shrill headlines.

Let's be honest - starmers career has not been one of continuous success stories. But let's have some balance. 

Our current prime minister has been widely derided as the worst foreign secretary for a long while if not ever. One whose thoughtless comments to a committee were actually used by Iran to justify locking up a British citizen. 

Comparing to somebody who headed an organisation that determined that in the absence of actual witnesses, prosecuting 40 year old alleged offences might not fly seems a very weak comparison. 

I'm sure nothing will change @BriggRams mind on Starmer and that's their right. As it is my right to point out that the presentation of their argument is misleading and inaccurate. 

For me I shall reserve judgement until I see what he's about. I expect the time to see fault lines emerging will be when the bill for Covid-19 comes to be settled. 

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12 hours ago, Paul71 said:

 

Is lockdown the right policy and can it work?

given Sweden’s approach is less draconian and more based on social distancing and people being trusted to act responsibly, we are seeing people still going out to parks this weekend and being slated but the question is how do you tell people they can cram on public transport and drive ,walk,cycle to work where let’s be honest social distancing cannot be rigidly adhered to but they cannot exercise responsible social distancing at the weekend or evenings?

i am really starting to question the balance of the approach , people having to fight and go against every natural human instinct and not jump in a car to visit elderly parents even though they could do this responsibly with some social distancing measures to reduce massively the risks ,

we are crashing the economy when we need finance and manpower to finance the fight against this virus with hospitals, ventilator ,equipment and staff,

we have no idea how we escape from this worldwide lockdown and the damage that will have been done now and for years to come to peoples lives ,mental sate and health , would our efforts be better used targeting the most vulnerable for protection from this virus

you really do wonder whether a worldwide pooling of resources and finances to worst areas of outbreak as they come up at different times in different places ,

I know the above is probably daft rambling but I’m really not sure we are seeing joined up thinking in most areas of our approach to this 

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11 minutes ago, Archied said:

Is lockdown the right policy and can it work?

given Sweden’s approach is less draconian and more based on social distancing and people being trusted to act responsibly, we are seeing people still going out to parks this weekend and being slated but the question is how do you tell people they can cram on public transport and drive ,walk,cycle to work where let’s be honest social distancing cannot be rigidly adhered to but they cannot exercise responsible social distancing at the weekend or evenings?

i am really starting to question the balance of the approach , people having to fight and go against every natural human instinct and not jump in a car to visit elderly parents even though they could do this responsibly with some social distancing measures to reduce massively the risks ,

we are crashing the economy when we need finance and manpower to finance the fight against this virus with hospitals, ventilator ,equipment and staff,

we have no idea how we escape from this worldwide lockdown and the damage that will have been done now and for years to come to peoples lives ,mental sate and health , would our efforts be better used targeting the most vulnerable for protection from this virus

you really do wonder whether a worldwide pooling of resources and finances to worst areas of outbreak as they come up at different times in different places ,

I know the above is probably daft rambling but I’m really not sure we are seeing joined up thinking in most areas of our approach to this 

You make a lot of valid points Archied and I understand your conerns. As we're in 'uncharted territory' I'd be surprised if the Government are certain they've got the strategy right. We're definitely on a big learning curve. Hopefully we will learn from this with the least amount of deaths possible. IMO it's good there is going to be more cross-party discussion on the issue.

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15 minutes ago, Archied said:

Is lockdown the right policy and can it work?

given Sweden’s approach is less draconian and more based on social distancing and people being trusted to act responsibly, we are seeing people still going out to parks this weekend and being slated but the question is how do you tell people they can cram on public transport and drive ,walk,cycle to work where let’s be honest social distancing cannot be rigidly adhered to but they cannot exercise responsible social distancing at the weekend or evenings?

i am really starting to question the balance of the approach , people having to fight and go against every natural human instinct and not jump in a car to visit elderly parents even though they could do this responsibly with some social distancing measures to reduce massively the risks ,

we are crashing the economy when we need finance and manpower to finance the fight against this virus with hospitals, ventilator ,equipment and staff,

we have no idea how we escape from this worldwide lockdown and the damage that will have been done now and for years to come to peoples lives ,mental sate and health , would our efforts be better used targeting the most vulnerable for protection from this virus

you really do wonder whether a worldwide pooling of resources and finances to worst areas of outbreak as they come up at different times in different places ,

I know the above is probably daft rambling but I’m really not sure we are seeing joined up thinking in most areas of our approach to this 

Maybe people in Sweden can be relied on more, not sure.

Its a good question to ask, but I think it is one that demonstrates the almost impossible job the government has right now, as i said in a post previously damned if you do and all that.

You have examples of criticism for not going into lockdown sooner, yet you have people questioning being in lockdown at all. Those that criticised the government for even talking about herd immunity to those that think its the best solution.

When the most vulnerable numbers and in the millions I am not sure how you could find a way just to isolate and protect those, unless those in the population go about their business as normal and the rest still stay isolated from the world which would still mean restrictions of visiting family etc.

 

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35 minutes ago, Archied said:

Is lockdown the right policy and can it work?

given Sweden’s approach is less draconian and more based on social distancing and people being trusted to act responsibly, we are seeing people still going out to parks this weekend and being slated but the question is how do you tell people they can cram on public transport and drive ,walk,cycle to work where let’s be honest social distancing cannot be rigidly adhered to but they cannot exercise responsible social distancing at the weekend or evenings?

i am really starting to question the balance of the approach , people having to fight and go against every natural human instinct and not jump in a car to visit elderly parents even though they could do this responsibly with some social distancing measures to reduce massively the risks ,

we are crashing the economy when we need finance and manpower to finance the fight against this virus with hospitals, ventilator ,equipment and staff,

we have no idea how we escape from this worldwide lockdown and the damage that will have been done now and for years to come to peoples lives ,mental sate and health , would our efforts be better used targeting the most vulnerable for protection from this virus

you really do wonder whether a worldwide pooling of resources and finances to worst areas of outbreak as they come up at different times in different places ,

I know the above is probably daft rambling but I’m really not sure we are seeing joined up thinking in most areas of our approach to this 

It’s a case of damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

With regard to Sweden, don’t forget, that country (apart from Stockholm I guess) is far less densely populated that the UK so, it’s much easier to self isolate voluntarily. Another thing to consider is how Sweden is doing compared with other Nordic countries. I think, but am not sure, that Norway’s measures are tougher than than Sweden’s. Deaths per million in Norway is 11. In Sweden it’s 37.

Finally, I agree you’re at much greater risk commuting to work on public transport (although I suspect generally it’s far less cramped than normal) but it’s about reducing the risk. Perhaps not a good analogy but it’s like saying I cycle on busy roads every day without wearing a helmet so why shouldn’t I cycle on a quiet one without head protection?

 

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56 minutes ago, Archied said:

We are crashing the economy when we need finance and manpower to finance the fight against this virus with hospitals, ventilator ,equipment and staff,

We won't have the manpower to do that if everyone is in hospital or laid up at home. We are still at the beginning of this and there will be millions of new infections to come.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

We won't have the manpower to do that if everyone is in hospital or laid up at home. We are still at the beginning of this and there will be millions of new infections to come.

That’s partly true but the vast majority don’t die , the vast majority have nothing more than flue like symptoms and big numbers have no symptoms whatever? 
don’t get me wrong the post was not about criticising its trying to get my head around where we are and what’s happening ,trying to read and research as much as I can and put some thought into it,

myself and my family have virtually not been out the house since lock down and all incomes dried up as we are self employed so it’s not a case of us ignoring this crisis and recommendations 

 

Edited by Archied

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12 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

My made up facts about the sort of places you copy your investigations from probably contained more truth than the garbage post you made on here.

Hilarious that you chose Savile to attack Starmer on too, what with his well documented friendship with top Tories and Royals, whom I presume you and your vigilante friends idolise.

Are you on glue 🙄

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2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Strange, I was honestly expecting an in depth response to the points raised by @Van der MoodHoover to your pathetic Starmer post. 

have to say as someone who voted conservative I am quite impressed with starmer. his comments about working with and supporting government policy is admirable,  he is right this is not the time for point scoring,  as he is right the mistakes made should be examined.

I think its harsh to put the blame at his door for saville,  it's not like he had been in the position long at that stage, and the reform under him led to many convictions.

 

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20 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

have to say as someone who voted conservative I am quite impressed with starmer. his comments about working with and supporting government policy is admirable,  he is right this is not the time for point scoring,  as he is right the mistakes made should be examined.

I think its harsh to put the blame at his door for saville,  it's not like he had been in the position long at that stage, and the reform under him led to many convictions.

 

I saw Starmer on Andrew Marr this morning. Regardless of what anyone thinks of him politically, he at least interviews like a human being.

Corbyn - every time he was interviewed, looked deeply uncomfortable and almost tight-lipped. I think it reflected the bubble he existed in as leader, he couldn't cope with anyone who wasn't an adoring fan.

Also interesting it seems he is prepared to go full Clem Attlee with Boris over the Covid emergency - he said Boris has already invited him into briefings.

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15 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

@BriggRam 0 @Van der MoodHoover 6

Shame you had to waste your time replying to moronic posts like this, but good work.

Worth remembering though, the right wing papers will presumably try similar smears if Starmer suggests anything that might slightly dent the vast fortunes of corporate tax evaders or the mega rich. 

You ever contemplated the way you try and rouse people to the left, in fact, turns people off...

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7 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

You ever contemplated the way you try and rouse people to the left, in fact, turns people off...

Not really. I just think it would be nice if anyone slight left is centre is not demonised by the right wing press.

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10 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Not really. I just think it would be nice if anyone slight left is centre is not demonised by the right wing press.

Jeez give it a rest. 

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21 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Jeez give it a rest. 

Sorry, was just responding to the drivel posted about Starmer. Obviously there was no response when @Van der MoodHoover challenged the terrible original post. It's that sort of garbage that undermines democracy. That's if it's not already finished thanks to social media. Just think of similar people to @BriggRam who have read the same thing and are now immediately wary of Starmer. Probably the same sort of people who were destroying telecoms masts because of 5G conspiracy theories. 

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6 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Sorry, was just responding to the drivel posted about Starmer. Obviously there was no response when @Van der MoodHoover challenged the terrible original post. It's that sort of garbage that undermines democracy. That's if it's not already finished thanks to social media. Just think of similar people to @BriggRam who have read the same thing and are now immediately wary of Starmer. Probably the same sort of people who were destroying telecoms masts because of 5G conspiracy theories. 

Don't worry, Gboro allows you to say what you want on here 😉

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No Rebecca Long-Bailey in any of the key shadow cabinet positions. Can anyone else hear the sharpening of political knives?

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