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The Politics Thread 2020


G STAR RAM

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33 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

The next few days will be interesting (sobering) in respect of the 5 o’clock updates. The Government I think needs to be much more open regarding the issues that have been, and continue to be, encountered.  Testing is key, but we look like we way behind the curve, and not getting close to addressing the critical need:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52118781?at_custom3=%40BBCPolitics&at_custom1=[post+type]&at_custom2=twitter&at_medium=custom7&at_campaign=64&at_custom4=twitter

It doesn't help when the likes if Gove, when asked this question, turned it round to blaming China for not giving us the details sooner.

Whilst that may be true, there are more pressing concerns than trying to pass the buck. This is all Gove has ever done, which is why the likes of him are terrible people to be leading in a crisis. See Trump.

I'd have been much happier with a cabinet that included May, Hunt and Hammond rather than Gove, Rabb and Patel. New chancellor seems ok so far though.

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6 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

There is one thing all this upheaval is doing and that is showing-up some bosses for what they really are.

There will always be good and bad. Hopefully the good ones will come out of this stronger and will prosper and the tossers out there pay for it in the end.

 

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1 minute ago, i-Ram said:

Let’s agree on ‘some’. Extremely difficult time for small companies, particularly long established family run (and ‘family’ oriented) businesses:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52114414

I hope people's memories run long for those employers who abandoned their staff. Mike Ashley, Beardy Branson and the like hopefully will find the public don't forgive quickly. 

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4 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Let’s agree on ‘some’. Extremely difficult time for small companies, particularly long established family run (and ‘family’ oriented) businesses:

 

But there is absolutely no reason for not furloughing staff if the business cannot operate.

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3 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I hope people's memories run long for those employers who abandoned their staff. Mike Ashley, Beardy Branson and the like hopefully will find the public don't forgive quickly. 

I saw your quick reply and thought you were going to bring me up for including orient in my post ?

I agree with the above, adding Tim Martin to the list.  

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2 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

But there is absolutely no reason for not furloughing staff if the business cannot operate.

Really - have you ever run a business?  Cash flow is vital, and if monies are not coming through (e.g debtors are not paying, stock cannot be sold, new credit is not available or has been withdrawn, and Government support is slow coming through) many businesses that operate on a hand to mouth basis may not be in a position to cover the 20% wages that need to be covered, and the rent/mortgage, and debt repayment, etc., etc. Many good, well run businesses will fail during this period.

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5 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

Howard Jones? Curiosity Killed The Cat? China Crisis? All of a sudden being locked up with no chance of social interaction seems not as bad as it get after all.

C'mon ... we are talking the Northampton Balloon Festival here in 1996 ...

 

 ....  but if I remember rightly it didn't stop the mullet-sporting radio local DJ behaving like he was Jesus as he ponced about the stage.

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20 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I hope people's memories run long for those employers who abandoned their staff. Mike Ashley, Beardy Branson and the like hopefully will find the public don't forgive quickly. 

I do hope you are right but I sadly feel that come winter the Wetherspoons in Heathrow will be full of crowds in their Sports Direct shell suits, waiting for the boarding call on their Virgin Atlantic flight to Orlando. All three operate at the end of the market where morality cedes easily to price. A few bargain bucket deals will sort that.

I mean, look at those that we have forgiven over the years - Kris Commons, Archie Gemmill, Peter Shilton, Alan Hinton, even some of us forgave Robbie Savage which shows that pretty much anything is possible if it works in your favour.

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3 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I do hope you are right but I sadly feel that come winter the Wetherspoons in Heathrow will be full of crowds in their Sports Direct shell suits, waiting for the boarding call on their Virgin Atlantic flight to Orlando. All three operate at the end of the market where morality cedes easily to price. A few bargain bucket deals will sort that.

You are probably right, although I am not so sure.

The virus situation is awful, and at the end of it the NHS and key workers will be lionized. But I think folks won't forget those caught on the other side of the coin - distinct smell of burning bridges right now.

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11 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Really - have you ever run a business?  Cash flow is vital, and if monies are not coming through (e.g debtors are not paying, stock cannot be sold, new credit is not available or has been withdrawn, and Government support is slow coming through) many businesses that operate on a hand to mouth basis may not be in a position to cover the 20% wages that need to be covered, and the rent/mortgage, and debt repayment, etc., etc. Many good, well run businesses will fail during this period.

I meant furloughed instead of laying them off, as this will cost the business nothing.

I've been in business 25 years and as yesterday was my year-end I can honestly say its been my worst year ever (and that is without Covid), but I won't mention why.

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10 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

I meant furloughed instead of laying them off, as this will cost the business nothing.

I've been in business 25 years and as yesterday was my year-end I can honestly say its been my worst year ever (and that is without Covid), but I won't mention why.

Furlough only gives the employee 80% of their salary, so as a business you need to either:

1. Cover the 20% from your limited cash flow.

2. Re-negotiate your contracts with employees imposing a 20% pay cut during the period of furlough.

Both of those have a cost to the business.

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6 minutes ago, td_evans said:

Furlough only gives the employee 80% of their salary, so as a business you need to either:

1. Cover the 20% from your limited cash flow.

2. Re-negotiate your contracts with employees imposing a 20% pay cut during the period of furlough.

Both of those have a cost to the business.

The point I'm trying to make is that rather than dump your staff by laying them off, you can furlough them AT NO COST. I understand paying the additional 20% is the right thing to do, but if that is not affordable (you don't have to do it), 80% of a wage is better than bugger-all and costs the business nowt.

I do have an inkling of understanding this as I've owned a business for 25 years.

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17 minutes ago, td_evans said:

Furlough only gives the employee 80% of their salary, so as a business you need to either:

1. Cover the 20% from your limited cash flow.

2. Re-negotiate your contracts with employees imposing a 20% pay cut during the period of furlough.

Both of those have a cost to the business.

It's only 80% if that is up to £2.5k. That's an issue in the south east. Add that to the tax on it too.

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31 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

You are probably right, although I am not so sure.

The virus situation is awful, and at the end of it the NHS and key workers will be lionized. But I think folks won't forget those caught on the other side of the coin - distinct smell of burning bridges right now.

I hope you're right - I really do. Bringing a bit of social and moral decency would be no bad silver lining to the cloud.

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2 hours ago, td_evans said:

Furlough only gives the employee 80% of their salary, so as a business you need to either:

1. Cover the 20% from your limited cash flow.

2. Re-negotiate your contracts with employees imposing a 20% pay cut during the period of furlough.

Both of those have a cost to the business.

Option 2 wouldn't necessarily result in that much of a cost to the business. 

image.thumb.png.bdd051c1df523bb16c260223e037c060.png

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20 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Option 2 wouldn't necessarily result in that much of a cost to the business. 

image.thumb.png.bdd051c1df523bb16c260223e037c060.png

That quote at the bottom is pretty much exactly how I had interpreted it. It has to be a two way street. Employees don’t lose their rights, it’s important that they know what they are entitled to. 

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8 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Fair play to you. Good to hear.

My daughter in law has received an email yesterday that she's no longer a member of the work pension scheme. She's 8 and a half months pregnant and on maternity leave. We have no idea what this means - I guess she could be furloughed, but I think more likely the company has just cancelled everyone's contracts and kicked them out of work. Hopefully employment law will kick in as, due to the maternity situation, they should be in big trouble. Sounds like everyone has had their jobs terminated.

Imteresting

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/uk-furlough-scheme-job-protection

In the days after his initial announcement, Sunak was forced to extend the job retention scheme by offering to pay employer national insurance and pension contributions up to a maximum of £300 a month for each member of staff. This followed concerns that some employers would still make their staff redundant because of the remaining costs of keeping them on the books even after the bulk of their wages would be covered by the state.

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2 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

That quote at the bottom is pretty much exactly how I had interpreted it. It has to be a two way street. Employees don’t lose their rights, it’s important that they know what they are entitled to. 

Yes you're right although, employees might feel they have little choice and that's not necessarily the employer taking advantage - in many cases it may well be that the business simply can't afford to make up the difference. Whilst regrettable, if I was faced with the choice (fortunately I'm not) of either only receiving 80% but still having a job to go back to or losing my job (and the business I work for potentially going bust) I would choose the former. 

Provided you're reasonably confident that your employer isn't taking advantage it feels like a time for mutual cooperation and accepting the difficult position your employer may be facing. I know this is the position my son in law is in and he's been furloughed on 80%.

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