The Politics Thread 2020

[jono]

@ramit ... guilty mate .. just sometimes I can’t stop myself

@86 Schmokes & a Pancake .. alright ! You’ve convinced me .. I’ll watch it but I don’t want the free set of tumblers and I’m not giving my credit card number

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, jono said:

I have no doubt business practices will change in the aftermath of this virus. However,  People and companies will still exchange labour and skills for a medium of exchange on a variety of scales- small large, national and international . I am sure certain large conglomerates will suffer or fail. There will be winners and losers, victims and predators. It’s called human nature.

As to the video, if I get a few minutes I might have a look but noisy declaimers of the new truth (theirs) are 10 a penny on you tube. Just as noisy activists for one form or another of self promotion are 10 a penny, along with conspiracy theories, miracle cures, purveyors of the next big thing. And with all of them there is one common factor.... A little bit of truth mixed up with a lot of BS and exaggeration. 

Its not about the death of capitalism - its about the death of globalised capitalism.

The central thesis is that by shifting production overseas and moving to globalised, "just in time" supply chains, we have traded efficiency for fragility and have stretched the system too far. Therefore, he advocates "nationalising" production - which means bringing it back to the nation state, but NOT necessarily having the state run things (so NOT nationalisation).

Interestingly he also basically describes what the government "should do" which is.....to print money to engage in "quantitative easing for the people" which is to direct money directly to individuals NOT into the financial system. He suggests an amount sufficient to enable people to meet 3 months bills. Sound familiar? (this video is a couple of weeks old as they refer to the cheltenham festival going on).

[Eddie]

19 hours ago, reverendo de duivel said:

His pro Brexit stance seemed rather undermined by him selling American Brandy, Australian Whiskey etc etc as an example of the good deals we could do once we'd left, while we were still a member.

The day he stopped selling Belgian beer is the day I stopped going into any Wetherspoons pubs. That was a Brexity response from me, but I'm over it - it all seems totally unimportant now.

The fact that he decided to sack all his staff this week just emphasises what he thinks of society as a whole. I hope that he goes out of business completely, and dies destitute and alone.

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The day he stopped selling Belgian beer is the day I stopped going into any Wetherspoons pubs. That was a Brexity response from me, but I'm over it - it all seems totally unimportant now.

The fact that he decided to sack all his staff this week just emphasises what he thinks of society as a whole. I hope that he goes out of business completely, and dies destitute and alone.

Nice to see you back. Hope you and the memsahib are bearing up ?

[DarkFruitsRam7]

5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The day he stopped selling Belgian beer is the day I stopped going into any Wetherspoons pubs. That was a Brexity response from me, but I'm over it - it all seems totally unimportant now.

The fact that he decided to sack all his staff this week just emphasises what he thinks of society as a whole. I hope that he goes out of business completely, and dies destitute and alone.

As long as someone swoops in and buys the company for a quid so that I can keep going to Spoons.

[Eddie]

2 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Nice to see you back. Hope you and the memsahib are bearing up ?

Well, I got David to zap my original account and I started up 'Montgolfier' (old DET members like Utch will remember me from those days as Dirigible or Balloon, so it was a bit of a blatant clue as to who I was really) and carried on posting until about October, but with the run-up to the general election things just got so fraught, acrimonious and generally silly that I just bailed out.

She's as well as can be expected - she suffers badly from claustrophobia and Seasonal Affected Disorder, but the bright weather has helped her a little with the latter. I'm fine - really. I have vast quantities of German and Belgian beer in the house, and I'm going to start brewing my own again.

Although I am a pensioner I still work part-time (and have a huge amount that I really ought to be getting on with), and so long as people want to buy things online, there's no reason for that to change.

[Van der MoodHoover]

15 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

As long as someone swoops in and buys the company for a quid so that I can keep going to Spoons.

want to borrow a quid mate? I can't be naffed - running a boozer is a young fellers game.....

[Eddie]

11 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

As long as someone swoops in and buys the company for a quid so that I can keep going to Spoons.

It's a pity that 'going to Wetherspoons' seems to have become a political statement - or in my case, 'not going to Wetherspoons' has. I can extend that dislike of the man who runs the show now to the fat slob who runs Sports Direct. If your first thought regarding a crisis is 'I know - I'll sack my workforce or ignore government advice - that'll save me a few quid', then that is somebody who I could never support.

When this crisis is over, there are going to be plenty of pubs and licensees - and sports equipment retailers for that matter - far more worthy of support, at least in my opinion.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

It's a pity that 'going to Wetherspoons' seems to have become a political statement - or in my case, 'not going to Wetherspoons' has. I can extend that dislike of the man who runs the show now to the fat slob who runs Sports Direct. If your first thought regarding a crisis is 'I know - I'll sack my workforce or ignore government advice - that'll save me a few quid', then that is somebody who I could never support.

When this crisis is over, there are going to be plenty of pubs and licensees - and sports equipment retailers for that matter - far more worthy of support, at least in my opinion.

Good to see you back @Eddie

[jono]

6 hours ago, ramit said:

If the economic system crashes, they will crash with it

Did you watch the video?

It’s interesting and there are some sound observations. But the start really wound me up with the false premise.. that: who we are now as a system ( prior to Covid ) is some sort of rampant free market economy populated by by right wing neoliberal zealots .. It isn’t .. we lived in a mixed economy with state systems and free market ops running side by side. (Imperfectly but running ) .. And to cement that .. the current govt ( a supposed right wing one -  it isn’t BTW ) has indeed dispensed with any neoliberal element in order to address this huge problem, thus demonstrating that it isn’t this dogmatic neoliberal entity. The sideways snipes at the desire for American style health service, what was that about ? Who’s desire ?  .. no .. never on the agenda of any UK government .. so why even bring it up. ? .. politics rather than intellectual discussion 

but yes .. the idea that we have centralised production of useful “stuff” and with it the local supply chain - in the hands of a few is spot on 

 

[mozza]

@Eddie,  good to see you back, made my day, you long haired hippy.

[ramit]

28 minutes ago, jono said:

It’s interesting and there are some sound observations. But the start really wound me up with the false premise.. that: who we are now as a system ( prior to Covid ) is some sort of rampant free market economy populated by by right wing neoliberal zealots .. It isn’t .. we lived in a mixed economy with state systems and free market ops running side by side. (Imperfectly but running ) .. And to cement that .. the current govt ( a supposed right wing one -  it isn’t BTW ) has indeed dispensed with any neoliberal element in order to address this huge problem, thus demonstrating that it isn’t this dogmatic neoliberal entity. The sideways snipes at the desire for American style health service, what was that about ? Who’s desire ?  .. no .. never on the agenda of any UK government .. so why even bring it up. ? .. politics rather than intellectual discussion 

but yes .. the idea that we have centralised production of useful “stuff” and with it the local supply chain - in the hands of a few is spot on 

 

Everything to do with society has a political angle, we can't very well express an opinion without it being political, so i don't understand what point you are making there.  You are being political and so am i.

It was the globalization point that i found most interesting in the video and i agree with the assessment that it has run it's course and cannot continue as it is, or offer any solutions during pandemic.  It is flawed at it's core. To outsource production of essential products is for example not wise as soon as a crisis situation arises, it is asking for trouble, no begging for it and now it has it.   Like Murphy's law says, if something may not go wrong it surely will.

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

Everything to do with society has a political angle, we can't very well express an opinion without it being political, so i don't understand what point you are making there.  You are being political and so am i.

It was the globalization point that i found most interesting in the video and i agree with the assessment that it has run it's course and cannot continue as it is, or offer any solutions during pandemic.  It is flawed at it's core. To outsource production of essential products is for example not wise as soon as a crisis situation arises, it is asking for trouble, no begging for it and now it has it.   Like Murphy's law says, if something may not go wrong it surely will.

My take on it was that the philosophy of capitalism lead to globalization, because of the need to pursue profits growth through efficiency. 

The origin was explained in terms of thos us firms happy to transfer production to China simply to exploit differential costs in the 1980s. Even to the point of giving up 50% of the company to China. 

Without realising it, we were trading off efficiency for fragility. The mis-messaging was that global supply chains were more resilient whereas in fact they are more fragile.

The other illustrative picture was private debt which in th UK has quadrupled since the Thatcher "revolution ".  This shows that the UKs "increases" in standard of living is illusory. Its all debt financed. 

I found it interesting and not being political in the sense that it was pointing to individual political parties. 

[jono]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

Everything to do with society has a political angle, we can't very well express an opinion without it being political, so i don't understand what point you are making there.  You are being political and so am i.

It was the globalization point that i found most interesting in the video and i agree with the assessment that it has run it's course and cannot continue as it is, or offer any solutions during pandemic.  It is flawed at it's core. To outsource production of essential products is for example not wise as soon as a crisis situation arises, it is asking for trouble, no begging for it and now it has it.   Like Murphy's law says, if something may not go wrong it surely will.

The point I was making was that the presenters lead in was in effect a political broadcast of a cliched type, not really relevant to what the guy had  to say about the structure of society and business pre and post .. All the preamble was just a broadcast of his or his channels views on socio economics. This wasn’t really that relevant to the discourse. This was a set of views on a lot of fixed issues that are favourite chewy sticks for the left. It detracted from the guests interesting angles. For me it weakened the intellectual integrity of the whole thing. 

 

[jono]

23 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

My take on it was that the philosophy of capitalism lead to globalization, because of the need to pursue profits growth through efficiency. 

The origin was explained in terms of thos us firms happy to transfer production to China simply to exploit differential costs in the 1980s. Even to the point of giving up 50% of the company to China. 

Without realising it, we were trading off efficiency for fragility. The mis-messaging was that global supply chains were more resilient whereas in fact they are more fragile.

The other illustrative picture was private debt which in th UK has quadrupled since the Thatcher "revolution ".  This shows that the UKs "increases" in standard of living is illusory. Its all debt financed. 

I found it interesting and not being political in the sense that it was pointing to individual political parties. 

All true and interesting. For me though it’s always been obvious that that is where we have gone. It wasn't even Thatcher or exclusive to the UK. It was old rich Western Europe  .. it started in the 1960’s .. the empires demise meant we lost our access to cheap raw materials, better communications and education world wide meant we had competitors in technology. At the same time our unions ( rightly )demanded rights that cost money but (wrongly) without responsibility for consequences and greedy employers still wanted to maintain their old life ... way out ? = debt

[1of4]

Well another day and another government minister appears on the TV spouting the same BS as Nadhim Zahawi did last night.. Tonight it's the turn of Robert Jenrick. I must give him due credit, he did manage to deliver the BS message with more sincerity than his fellow minister did last night.

When Jenrick was asked why the government hadn't done more sooner. So as to have the kit needed and in place to combat the virus outbreak when it happened, just as Germany had done. We got the standard waffle as an answer.

Why is it that Germany can carry out more tests in a day than the UK as managed in total since the first coronavirus case was detected here.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Well another day and another government minister appears on the TV spouting the same BS as Nadhim Zahawi did last night.. Tonight it's the turn of Robert Jenrick. I must give him due credit, he did manage to deliver the BS message with more sincerity than his fellow minister did last night.

When Jenrick was asked why the government hadn't done more sooner. So as to have the kit needed and in place to combat the virus outbreak when it happened, just as Germany had done. We got the standard waffle as an answer.

Why is it that Germany can carry out more tests in a day than the UK as managed in total since the first coronavirus case was detected here.

National Health Shoestring when it comes to the budget. As I once told my boss at a yearly appraisal, don't clap, throw money.

 

 

[ramit]

i think this virus outbreak presents an opportunity for change, i believe it is a warning that if we continue to pollute the planet and treat nature as our servant, with the mindset of exponential infinite growth in a finite ecosystem, we will do away with ourselves.  Unfortunately this simple lesson has been learned by too few and it seems more pain will be needed before enough do.  You can see it in the responses of governments, where companies and economics have been placed ahead of the population's health and well being, using the rationale that without the motors of industry and commerce continuing to turn, burn and churn, protecting the population's health cannot be achieved, when it's the other way around, that without the health of the people and the ecosystem industry and commerce cannot survive.  It's not a juggling act that is needed, but a total reevaluation of our values and priorities.  If enough of us don't learn this lesson this time and grasp the opportunity for change, i fear constant plague will become our norm.

[uttoxram75]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

Well, I got David to zap my original account and I started up 'Montgolfier' (old DET members like Utch will remember me from those days as Dirigible or Balloon, so it was a bit of a blatant clue as to who I was really) and carried on posting until about October, but with the run-up to the general election things just got so fraught, acrimonious and generally silly that I just bailed out.

She's as well as can be expected - she suffers badly from claustrophobia and Seasonal Affected Disorder, but the bright weather has helped her a little with the latter. I'm fine - really. I have vast quantities of German and Belgian beer in the house, and I'm going to start brewing my own again.

Although I am a pensioner I still work part-time (and have a huge amount that I really ought to be getting on with), and so long as people want to buy things online, there's no reason for that to change.

Oh for gods sake, i've had me feet up eating popcorn for months pinching a living off David. I'll actually have to start modding now....

welcome back Eddie?

[G STAR RAM]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52048213

Wow!

Corbyn genuinely believes that this current  unprecedented spending proves he was right all along.