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Ilsonram12

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Isn’t Carson out of contract as well next summer?

We seem to heading towards a bit of crisis

Releasing all of those only leaves us about 15-16 players with a massive recruitment exercise required.

this convinces me even more that we need to promote sibley, and bird asap.

I really don’t see how we can possibly afford or find 8 new signings minimum. Plus I would argue that we also need to shift Lawrence, jozefzoon, and Malone 

On that basis I can imagine that we would retain a few just to make the recruitment manageable. 

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1 hour ago, WHAT DO I GET said:

Really aren't saying we should do the lot, more saying we should if we could. I still think the ones who's contract will be finished should go as most of them are on big money and this should free up cash for purchases and incentives for the youth. The squad is over done with numbers and is unbalanced by the eg we don't have enough true centre backs but plenty of reasonable full backs I think we are running a squad of 32 at the moment which is far too large. I have said elsewhere on the forum that Cocu absolutely creamed the squad at PSV when he took it over and this is what he needs to do now here. Whether he can or be allowed to is a different matter. 

That true? Interesting. 

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4 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Isn’t Carson out of contract as well next summer?

We seem to heading towards a bit of crisis

Releasing all of those only leaves us about 15-16 players with a massive recruitment exercise required.

this convinces me even more that we need to promote sibley, and bird asap.

I really don’t see how we can possibly afford or find 8 new signings minimum. Plus I would argue that we also need to shift Lawrence, jozefzoon, and Malone 

On that basis I can imagine that we would retain a few just to make the recruitment manageable. 

I just hope we bring in some younger players not past it journeymen.

I don’t mind an older keeper but elsewhere we should be investing for the future.

Let’s hope this time we get it right. So many windows have left us worse off.

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10 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Isn’t Carson out of contract as well next summer?

We seem to heading towards a bit of crisis

Releasing all of those only leaves us about 15-16 players with a massive recruitment exercise required.

this convinces me even more that we need to promote sibley, and bird asap.

I really don’t see how we can possibly afford or find 8 new signings minimum. Plus I would argue that we also need to shift Lawrence, jozefzoon, and Malone 

On that basis I can imagine that we would retain a few just to make the recruitment manageable. 

Isn't that exactly what we need? A good clearout, promotion of 5+ youngsters and the recruitment of 5+ more experienced players to fit the manager's system and favoured playing style?

I don't see why you'd think that is a crisis?

As for "can't afford" to replace, the wage savings made IF the likes of Fozzy, Davies, Huddlestone, Thorne, Martin & Anya were all released, along with the loanees returning to their parent clubs, will comfortably allow for the recruitment of the 5+ senior players.

If the others you mentioned, Malone/Lawrence/Josefzoon, were to move on then again this funds their replacements.

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12 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Isn’t Carson out of contract as well next summer?

 

I believe he was given a contract extension early last season, to Jun 21.

I can't quote a source as I don't remember it. (so I may have made it up - sorry)

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10 minutes ago, U.M. said:

I believe he was given a contract extension early last season, to Jun 21.

I can't quote a source as I don't remember it. (so I may have made it up - sorry)

Then I really don’t understand why he is out on loan.

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15 hours ago, Ilsonram12 said:

Out of the current Derby loanees and contract expires would you like any of them to be signed on a permanent/renewed for next season?

- Jamie Paterson (28)
- Kieran Dowell (22)
- Ben Hamer (32)
- Matthew Clarke (23)
- Chris Martin (31)
- Tom Huddlestone (32)
- Mason Bennett (23)
- Craig Forsyth (30)
- Curtis Davies (34)
- Ikechi Anya (31)
- George Thorne (26)

None from me

And add Carson to the list and we have more than a teamful of players leaving.

               Carson/Hamer

    Anya Davies Clarke Forsyth

            Hudds    Thorne

Paterson     Dowell       Bennett

                   Martin

I think it's time to let them all go. Sell as many as possible (even with peanuts and magic beans) in January as running out of contract is the worst option for FFP. That would still leave us with 22 players and without recognised centrebacks:

GK: Roos/Ravas/Mitchell

FB: Bogle/Wisdom/Malone/Lowe/Buchanan

CB: No one

DM: Bielik/Evans/Bird

CM: Rooney/Holmes/Shinnie/Knight/Sibley

Wingers: Lawrence/Waghorn/Josefzoon/Mitchell-Lawson/Whittaker

SC: Rooney/Waghorn/Marriott/Whittaker

We really need some serious strenghtening in next two windows if we wanna be competitive next season. First choice keeper (please be Begovic), new centreback pairing, 2 first choice wingers and first choice striker. That's a lot to ask.

Edited by Dimmu

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Jamie Paterson (28) - return to sender
- Kieran Dowell (22) - return on 1st Jan if possible
- Ben Hamer (32) - send back
- Matthew Clarke (23) - see how he goes when fit before deciding
- Chris Martin (31) - release with love 
- Tom Huddlestone (32) - release
- Mason Bennett (23) - release (in a taxi)
- Craig Forsyth (30) - thanks but bye
- Curtis Davies (34) - as above
- Ikechi Anya (31) - who?
- George Thorne (26) - wrap in cotton wool and set free

Summary - none to be retained

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3 minutes ago, Rampant said:

Jamie Paterson (28) - return to sender
- Kieran Dowell (22) - return on 1st Jan if possible
- Ben Hamer (32) - send back
- Matthew Clarke (23) - see how he goes when fit before deciding
- Chris Martin (31) - release with love 
- Tom Huddlestone (32) - release
- Mason Bennett (23) - release (in a taxi)
- Craig Forsyth (30) - thanks but bye
- Curtis Davies (34) - as above
- Ikechi Anya (31) - who?
- George Thorne (26) - wrap in cotton wool and set free

Summary - none to be retained

If my maths is correct that's 10 players we won't have next season which means either we have to start rapidly promoting players from out academy set up to the first team or a massive recruitment drive - bearing in mind that our recent strike rate on new players being any good is probably about 1 in 3 which then means the 10 is probably nearly 20....helluva task.

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I think that list pretty much sums up why we are in the mess we are.

All of those are either not good enough or were good players in the past

but now their legs have gone, either through being too old or in the case of GT through terrible injuries.

And of those not in the list because they are permanents with longer contracts theres a few more who fall into

the same categories.

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I think we have a real opportunity here to finally clear out the dead wood on high salaries and give the chance of progression to young lads coming up through the ranks. I'd suggest Curtis Davies is worth an extra year, as he is a seasoned pro, and excellent role model. Matt Clarke I would see how he goes when fit, but I quite like the look of him. Chris Martin maybe also worth an extra year, but not silly money. Hamer seems to have done well so far.

Other than that a big clear out please, and lets start again, we are in a transition season, and the manager wants to build for the future, so lets use that time wisely to build a decent young squad for next season with a few seasoned pros in there to add experience.

Edited by Simmo’s left foot

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Paterson - Sign on a perm, not spectacular, but a pretty good player who would be good competition for places.

Dowell - Christ no, get rid of him ASAP. Truly awful player, one of the worst midfielders I’ve had the misfortune of watching play the game. Half arsed, and totally poo. No chance he should come back. Everton may want him back now anyway after how this loan has gone. 

Hamer- Out his depth at this level. Fairly solid but can’t play the footballing style we need. Definitely not the solution in that position, so he shouldn’t return for me.

Clarke - Wasn’t sure about him at first, but he’s shown some ability before he got injured. Again not spectacular, but a pretty good solid player who would keep some depth at centre half. Sign on a perm for me. I reckon we’d have a chance as well, I’m not sure he’s prem quality so Brighton may consider cashing in, 

Martin - Again, he’s not as good as he was, and isn’t the long term solution to taking us to promotion. But, he’s still a decent player and better than anything else we’ve currently got, so I’d give him a new short term contract to keep him around as cover to hopefully a new main striker.

Huddlestone - Similar to Martin, not quite the genius that he was, but he’s still a very clever player who adds composure to a team. Still good enough at this level as an option, though no longer one to build your team around. New short term deal here too.

Bennett - Much as he’s been an idiot, I still think he’s got talent. Not a goalscorer, but he offers a lot in general play. An excellent “effective” player I suppose, lacking in technique but his endeavour makes him one of our most effective attackers. New long term contract here, we’d be stupid to lose him for free anyway, at his age he has value.

Forsyth - Hes not a centre back. But he’s been a brilliant top drawer left back in his time, and he still was last season after his previous injury. I think we need to give him a chance to regain fitness and see whether he’s still the same player in his proper position. If he is, then he’s still the answer at LB for me moving forward toward pushing for promotion. I’d give him a short term contract to see what he can do.

Davies- Brilliant defender. One of the best to play for Derby in my lifetime, and is still one of the best in the division as an old fashioned centre half. But I just can’t justify keeping him at his age sadly. His lack of pace nowadays will mean he’s simply past it soon enough. So no new playing contract here, but I would suggest we could perhaps offer him a coaching role to get him on the ladder while he does his badges. I suspect he’ll want one more year in league one before he hangs up his boots which is fair enough, but I’d put the offer there. He’s a great character to have around, and he speaks well about the game. He’ll make a good coach I reckon and I think he deserves the chance to make his first steps here if he wants, after his battling performances the last few years.

Anya - I’m gonna sounds like I’m pissed, but weirdly, I’d keep him. On a short term deal on vastly reduced wages of course, but he can play so many positions that he’s one of the best “jack of all trades I’ve seen”. It’s useful to have players like that in a squad, and I’ve never thought he’s been a bad player when fit. Plus the FFP impact of letting him go would be painful. 

Thorne - Very sad to say, but I think his career here is over. Unbelievably good player when fit, one of the best midfielders I’ve ever watched, but it seems sadly his fitness just isn’t there. Devastating really to have to let someone of his quality go for free when he’s only 26, but it’s clearly over for him here. Feels such a waste really, just have to hope he can rebuild him career somewhere in league one. He’ll have to go for me.

So in conclusion, I’m gonna go against the grain and say I’d actually keep most of the players who are out of contract this summer in the short term, providing they agree to wages that aren’t ridiculous. And that’s not because I’m wanting to build a team out of them next season, only a couple of them I think are good enough to be playing regularly in the first team, when we hopefully set our sights on pushing for promotion again. But as I’ve said before, every team needs good depth, with decent enough players able to fill in for players who are injured. We’ve lacked that this season, but most of the above will still be good enough to play a role like that for the next year or so. If we let them all go, we’re letting a huge amount of squad depth go, and we’ll need a serious amount of transfers realistically to fill the gap. I don’t trust, especially with our record, that we’d be able to bring in enough quality players quickly enough to replace all of those leaving. We’ll end up with players worse than what we started with most likely, since most of those above are actually better than people give them credit for (which is why I think we should be doing better this year, but hey), and are still good enough to play some part in a decent squad.

So I’d look to keep most, though not all, of the above in the short term, and then gradually phase them out over the next couple of years, rather than trying to do it all at once.

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2 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Paterson - Sign on a perm, not spectacular, but a pretty good player who would be good competition for places.

Dowell - Christ no, get rid of him ASAP. Truly awful player, one of the worst midfielders I’ve had the misfortune of watching play the game. Half arsed, and totally poo. No chance he should come back. Everton may want him back now anyway after how this loan has gone. 

Hamer- Out his depth at this level. Fairly solid but can’t play the footballing style we need. Definitely not the solution in that position, so he shouldn’t return for me.

Clarke - Wasn’t sure about him at first, but he’s shown some ability before he got injured. Again not spectacular, but a pretty good solid player who would keep some depth at centre half. Sign on a perm for me. I reckon we’d have a chance as well, I’m not sure he’s prem quality so Brighton may consider cashing in, 

Martin - Again, he’s not as good as he was, and isn’t the long term solution to taking us to promotion. But, he’s still a decent player and better than anything else we’ve currently got, so I’d give him a new short term contract to keep him around as cover to hopefully a new main striker.

Huddlestone - Similar to Martin, not quite the genius that he was, but he’s still a very clever player who adds composure to a team. Still good enough at this level as an option, though no longer one to build your team around. New short term deal here too.

Bennett - Much as he’s been an idiot, I still think he’s got talent. Not a goalscorer, but he offers a lot in general play. An excellent “effective” player I suppose, lacking in technique but his endeavour makes him one of our most effective attackers. New long term contract here, we’d be stupid to lose him for free anyway, at his age he has value.

Forsyth - Hes not a centre back. But he’s been a brilliant top drawer left back in his time, and he still was last season after his previous injury. I think we need to give him a chance to regain fitness and see whether he’s still the same player in his proper position. If he is, then he’s still the answer at LB for me moving forward toward pushing for promotion. I’d give him a short term contract to see what he can do.

Davies- Brilliant defender. One of the best to play for Derby in my lifetime, and is still one of the best in the division as an old fashioned centre half. But I just can’t justify keeping him at his age sadly. His lack of pace nowadays will mean he’s simply past it soon enough. So no new playing contract here, but I would suggest we could perhaps offer him a coaching role to get him on the ladder while he does his badges. I suspect he’ll want one more year in league one before he hangs up his boots which is fair enough, but I’d put the offer there. He’s a great character to have around, and he speaks well about the game. He’ll make a good coach I reckon and I think he deserves the chance to make his first steps here if he wants, after his battling performances the last few years.

Anya - I’m gonna sounds like I’m pissed, but weirdly, I’d keep him. On a short term deal on vastly reduced wages of course, but he can play so many positions that he’s one of the best “jack of all trades I’ve seen”. It’s useful to have players like that in a squad, and I’ve never thought he’s been a bad player when fit. Plus the FFP impact of letting him go would be painful. 

Thorne - Very sad to say, but I think his career here is over. Unbelievably good player when fit, one of the best midfielders I’ve ever watched, but it seems sadly his fitness just isn’t there. Devastating really to have to let someone of his quality go for free when he’s only 26, but it’s clearly over for him here. Feels such a waste really, just have to hope he can rebuild him career somewhere in league one. He’ll have to go for me.

So in conclusion, I’m gonna go against the grain and say I’d actually keep most of the players who are out of contract this summer in the short term, providing they agree to wages that aren’t ridiculous. And that’s not because I’m wanting to build a team out of them next season, only a couple of them I think are good enough to be playing regularly in the first team, when we hopefully set our sights on pushing for promotion again. But as I’ve said before, every team needs good depth, with decent enough players able to fill in for players who are injured. We’ve lacked that this season, but most of the above will still be good enough to play a role like that for the next year or so. If we let them all go, we’re letting a huge amount of squad depth go, and we’ll need a serious amount of transfers realistically to fill the gap. I don’t trust, especially with our record, that we’d be able to bring in enough quality players quickly enough to replace all of those leaving. We’ll end up with players worse than what we started with most likely, since most of those above are actually better than people give them credit for (which is why I think we should be doing better this year, but hey), and are still good enough to play some part in a decent squad.

So I’d look to keep most, though not all, of the above in the short term, and then gradually phase them out over the next couple of years, rather than trying to do it all at once.

Sorry mate but I’d disagree with everything you’ve said apart from your opinion on Thorne. The only player I’d be inclined to keep is Huddlestone due to his passing ability, but even that would have to be on reduced terms.

The problem with this club is that we’ve handed out fat contracts to bang average players leaving us in a mess. I’d release the lot and start a fresh which is desperately needed. 

It’d also free up some wage space enabling us to change the squad considerably.

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21 hours ago, Ilsonram12 said:

Out of the current Derby loanees and contract expires would you like any of them to be signed on a permanent/renewed for next season?

- Jamie Paterson (28)
- Kieran Dowell (22)
- Ben Hamer (32)
- Matthew Clarke (23)
- Chris Martin (31)
- Tom Huddlestone (32)
- Mason Bennett (23)
- Craig Forsyth (30)
- Curtis Davies (34)
- Ikechi Anya (31)
- George Thorne (26)

None from me

Release all of them. 
 

Also get rid of Lawrence, Zoon, Malone & Roos in any way you can. 

Thats at least 15 players I’d shift on. 

Yes, that a lot of players. But we are so short of quality in the right areas and with players who actually give a damn and other issues, we need a complete rebuild. 
 

Let Cocu bring in who he wants, For the system and style he wants and promote from the under 23’s and get a real team ethos behind what we do and move forward. 

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12 minutes ago, KCG said:

Looks to me as if someone messed up big time over recent years.

Yes , but people want to crucify Cocu for it and bring  someone else in short term to further ballz it up for years to come. Why are people So short sighted and impatient for instant success. If doesn't work,  we've been there before .....if you want instant success go play FIFA or whatever 

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46 minutes ago, England Ram said:

Release all of them. 
 

Also get rid of Lawrence, Zoon, Malone & Roos in any way you can. 

Thats at least 15 players I’d shift on. 

Yes, that a lot of players. But we are so short of quality in the right areas and with players who actually give a damn and other issues, we need a complete rebuild. 
 

Let Cocu bring in who he wants, For the system and style he wants and promote from the under 23’s and get a real team ethos behind what we do and move forward. 

Or down. How on earth do you think our recruitment team will replace half of that lot?

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