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RoyMac5

New: Manager or not

New: Manager or not  

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4 hours ago, sunnyhill60 said:

Southampton are deeper in the doodoo than we are. Twelve months since the manager arrived (though they stayed up last season) they still are flirting with relegation. I will though concede their football is better than the tripe we are seeing.

I would rather give Coco a P45 than a transfer window.

I think your the Coco or should that read clown!

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8 hours ago, Ellafella said:

Well look @Chester40 thanks for the compliment; I haven’t actually made this point before. Also, I don’t believe we are a mid-table 2nd tier football club - we’re not quite as non-descript as you make out. We’ve been competing at the top-end of the Championship for the last 5 years, are founder members of the EFL, former Cup Winners and English Champions with top rate facilities and a large and loyal fan base; and I’m not really “hammering” Mel Morris just merely pointing out the dilemma that is now being faced. For me, reputation counts for little and perhaps I speak too much as I find for some people. There are many inducements that can be written into contracts that have a pre-requisite condition attached and for all we know they are in Mr Cocu’s - Mel Morris is too thoughtful and clever for there not to be.
 

Maybe I’m totally wrong and that in a reasonable period of time the players will start to do all of the things that Cocu points out we didn’t do in the game - show courage, pass accurately, exploit the wide spaces in and behind the Wigan defence, increase the tempo etc. But I see the product on the field and see the dis-connect between the “game plan” theory and draw the conclusion that I think pertains: that the players aren’t sufficiently convinced by the approach to put it into action. Maybe it’s because it doesn’t “transfer” to the English game. Anyhow, we’ll see. But I’m just saying it as I see it. 

Fair points. 

But the constant changes have not helped. We have gone to and fro...with totally different styles of manager and football...from smiley matey manager who plays expansive football (Schteve),  no-nonsense manager who plays long ball football (Pearson), inexperienced, connected, defensive manager (Clement), work within a budget, Championship experienced manager who plays counter attack (Rowett) to totally lacking in experience, well connected manager playing passing football (Lampard). IMO the squad has got worse and worse..Lampard totally warped reality with his incredible loans....after Rowett brought in old players and left the cupboards bare. 

Cocu has the best CV and has been left a pretty poor squad.  The worst of recent times. The purchases and loans over the summer were pretty concerning. I see fit to believe they weren't Cocu's fault and he has been handed a bag of ****. 

We should give him the window to see what he does and if we see things start to pull together into something coherent. Obviously if the current run continues and we are in real danger of relegation then he will come under pressure, but I believe that won't happen and finally we will benefit from giving someone time instead of not showing any patience and being the architects of our own downfall. If there is any truth in the rumour that players aren't pulling their weight or some feel divided loyalty over Keogh then they can get booted through the door ASAP.  There have been concerns about our team's mental strength over a long period, so let's have a clean slate and back the manager not the players for a change. 

 

Edited by Chester40

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23 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Cocu has the best CV and has been left a pretty poor squad.  The worst of recent times. The purchases and loans over the summer were pretty concerning. I see fit to believe they weren't Cocu's fault and he has been handed a bag of ****

What sort of level should the players in this squad play at then? No matter because even if we were playing non-league level I would expect to see better football than we see from Cocu's teams. Why is that? Because he insists on playing a formation not the squad - very inflexible. Plus the way he sets his teams up is to counter the opposition, pretty negative. A brainier Rowett without Vydra is what we've got! 😄

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D7ky31nWwAAbsl_.jpeg.thumb.jpg.513a64b756797a9323e4eb3e3263c462.jpgEMt8ZJoXUAQegJF.jpeg.thumb.jpg.27c887acf548ccf51256dbe7ce980dda.jpg

 

Compare these two teams. Last game under Lampard v our current team now. Factor in the fact that this team was also missing the usual Duane Holmes and Malone. 

SIX of that current first team are no longer at the club, a further two are long term injured. Anyone who argues we should be far better needs to take a long hard look at the difference in these teams and realise most of those players were replaced with youngsters. Cocu is working with what he's got, and currently that is not a lot. 

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6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What sort of level should the players in this squad play at then? No matter because even if we were playing non-league level I would expect to see better football than we see from Cocu's teams. Why is that? Because he insists on playing a formation not the squad - very inflexible. Plus the way he sets his teams up is to counter the opposition, pretty negative. A brainier Rowett without Vydra is what we've got! 😄

If you inserted Wilson, Mount and Tomori into our currant squad there would be a great improvement .You sarcastically mention Vydra only to replace him with Waghorn?

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18 minutes ago, RamLad1884 said:

D7ky31nWwAAbsl_.jpeg.thumb.jpg.513a64b756797a9323e4eb3e3263c462.jpgEMt8ZJoXUAQegJF.jpeg.thumb.jpg.27c887acf548ccf51256dbe7ce980dda.jpg

 

Compare these two teams. Last game under Lampard v our current team now. Factor in the fact that this team was also missing the usual Duane Holmes and Malone. 

SIX of that current first team are no longer at the club, a further two are long term injured. Anyone who argues we should be far better needs to take a long hard look at the difference in these teams and realise most of those players were replaced with youngsters. Cocu is working with what he's got, and currently that is not a lot. 

Really pees me off looking at that bench for the Villa game. What the hell.. 

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8 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Right..

So change the system to one that the players you have,at this time,can play, ffs.

That's what being a manager is about.....managing what you have in the most effective way.

Good grief.

No wonder we struggle.

 

 

What system is that?

Building from the back? With Davies and Forsyth at CB? 
 

Or what about direct long balls? Martin is okay but he doesn’t really challenge in the air and he isn’t going to chase stuff in behind. Rowett was hounded out for this style.

Okay what about getting it wide and crossing it in? We don’t have a single footballer, maybe Malone aside, capable of putting good balls into the box.

The squad is a complete mess. There isn’t a single distinguishable style. It’s a mish mash of mostly average players. That’s borne out of our most recent two managers who operated with short term agendas then ducked off when they had to clear up the mess. We finally have a manager who it appears at least wants to build something for the long term, and some people want him gone. The mind truly boggles

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9 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Kash, the players are not good enough. Its as simple as that. Look at the squad currently - 3 decent strikers, albeit one who is never fit (allegedly) and your fave who has been constantly pushed out on loan by successive managers. A patched up back 4 (who can't play out as we need) and a midfield shorn of the 2 players who created and scored most of our goals last year. And lets not underplay the effect of the club captain sacked for gross misconduct...its killed the goodwill in this squad, I'm certain of that.

We all know you want McClaren back but c'mon man, not even he could improve this shower. Its a rebuild job, there's quite a few that need to leave the club and quite a few that need to come in.

If we're still crap this time next year, absolutely justified in wanting Cocu out but without the benefit of a couple of full transfer windows I just don't see the sense in pulling the trigger now.

To suggest that we wait until this time next year and if we are still struggling that would be the time to do something is ludicrous and ignores all reality. It wouldn't be acceptable to Mel Morris , new investors or supporters , never mind the fact we might well be in league 1 by then and our gates dropped significantly.

The Alex Ferguson/Man Utd story can't be our guide - its a very very rare event.

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1 hour ago, RamLad1884 said:

D7ky31nWwAAbsl_.jpeg.thumb.jpg.513a64b756797a9323e4eb3e3263c462.jpgEMt8ZJoXUAQegJF.jpeg.thumb.jpg.27c887acf548ccf51256dbe7ce980dda.jpg

 

Compare these two teams. Last game under Lampard v our current team now. Factor in the fact that this team was also missing the usual Duane Holmes and Malone. 

SIX of that current first team are no longer at the club, a further two are long term injured. Anyone who argues we should be far better needs to take a long hard look at the difference in these teams and realise most of those players were replaced with youngsters. Cocu is working with what he's got, and currently that is not a lot. 

Easy to compare teams...however look at the team that Rowett got to and used in the Play off semi final:-

1 Carson

6 Keogh

33 Davies

3 Forsyth

14 Wisdom

44 Huddlestone

15 Johnson

8 Anya

10 Lawrence

19 Weimann

32 Jerome.

Can you honestly say that is that much different, quality wise, to what Cocu has at his disposal?  Waghorn, Martin and Marriott certainly comparable (if not better than ) with Weiman, Anya and Jerome.  He has Wisdom but chooses not to play him. He has spent £10 million on Bielek.  He allowed Carson to leave.  Even if people are a 'Cocu in' fans, it needs to be accepted that he is massively underachieving and is not getting the best out of the players.

Edited by GrimsbyRam

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1 hour ago, Chester40 said:

Fair points. 

But the constant changes have not helped. We have gone to and fro...with totally different styles of manager and football...from smiley matey manager who plays expansive football (Schteve),  no-nonsense manager who plays long ball football (Pearson), inexperienced, connected, defensive manager (Clement), work within a budget, Championship experienced manager who plays counter attack (Rowett) to totally lacking in experience, well connected manager playing passing football (Lampard). IMO the squad has got worse and worse..Lampard totally warped reality with his incredible loans....after Rowett brought in old players and left the cupboards bare. 

Cocu has the best CV and has been left a pretty poor squad.  The worst of recent times. The purchases and loans over the summer were pretty concerning. I see fit to believe they weren't Cocu's fault and he has been handed a bag of ****. 

We should give him the window to see what he does and if we see things start to pull together into something coherent. Obviously if the current run continues and we are in real danger of relegation then he will come under pressure, but I believe that won't happen and finally we will benefit from giving someone time instead of not showing any patience and being the architects of our own downfall. If there is any truth in the rumour that players aren't pulling their weight or some feel divided loyalty over Keogh then they can get booted through the door ASAP.  There have been concerns about our team's mental strength over a long period, so let's have a clean slate and back the manager not the players for a change. 

 

Yes @Chester40 I don’t disagree with the majority of what you have put and you have done so beautifully. I agree that we need stability and that we need to evolve a coherent system throughout the Club to ensure continuity and consistency; {Mel’s condition actually that previous managers have ignored}. And I want Cocu to be that manager so we don’t have to change again. But then I see him tinker; I see him play Forsyth at CH when we have Wisdom who played a season at Salzburg at CH and won the League. Forsyth’s distribution at CH isn’t good enough but he keeps being played. I saw us improve no end beating Preston at home and should’ve beaten Forest away but for profligate finishing under the diamond which made us look tidy and comfortable and which suits Martin and Lawrence which Cocu then unfathomably abandons. He refused to play Shinnie believing him not to be good enough yet Shinnie improved us 60% when he finally got a game because Cocu had no other options. But mostly I see a defensive, anti-football set up that I don’t recognise as football and I see a jumble of a game plan and a team with a League position which is rapidly getting worse. 
Then I hear Cocu explain and talk about a myriad things that the players did not do which lost us the game. And I wonder why the players are not doing them?? The other day I saw Wigan look like a superb team against us yet they’re bottom of the League and hadn’t won for 11 games and we scraped a goal from a long throw. 
 

But look at your post. Extrapolate our current form and trajectory and compare it with your sentence. You do not believe we will be relegated ...perhaps you are in denial? Perhaps you are not sufficiently heading the evidence? Mel will already be doing a risk analysis and he will have his concerns. 
People keep saying we can’t keep sacking managers which I totally agree with but neither can we afford relegation and week after week abject performances or if you believe Cocu performances that he was proud of despite the 3-0 score line to a team that were Below us in the table. 

“It is desired to render football worthy of the patronage generously bestowed upon it by the public and the committee will endeavour therefore to arrange matches...to witness matches of a higher order than have hitherto been played in Derby”.  Derby Mercury, 7/5/1884.

That is the Derby Way I believe. But on the evidence of what I’ve seen,I don’t think Cocu can deliver because his style is not in the spirit of football that we know. I may be wrong but I believe I’m right. 

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13 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Easy to compare teams...however look at the team that Rowett got to and used in the Play off semi final:-

1 Carson

6 Keogh

33 Davies

3 Forsyth

14 Wisdom

44 Huddlestone

15 Johnson

8 Anya

10 Lawrence

19 Weimann

32 Jerome.

Can you honestly say that is that much different, quality wise, to what Cocu has at his disposal?  Waghorn, Martin and Marriott certainly comparable (if not better than ) with Weiman, Anya and Jerome.  He has Wisdom but chooses not to play him. He has spent £10 million on Bielek.  He allowed Carson to leave.  Even if people are a 'Cocu in' fans, it needs to be accepted that he is massively underachieving and is not getting the best out of the players.

I think that’s the thing isn’t it 

rowett had a clear way of wanting to play and selected players and recruitment accordingly 

Cameron Jerome is a smack bang average footballer but he fit what rowett wanted 

cocu has brought in 3 outfield players and 2 have contributed nothing to his system 

where that buck stops is up for discussion but in my mind it’s ultimately the manager who says yes or no when presented with transfer options by his recruitment team 

the recruitment team don’t decide who we buy or how they are then used after purchase 

that buck stops with the gaffer 

end of story 

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1 minute ago, Ellafella said:

Yes @Chester40 I don’t disagree with the majority of what you have put and you have done so beautifully. I agree that we need stability and that we need to evolve a coherent system throughout the Club to ensure continuity and consistency; {Mel’s condition actually that previous managers have ignored}. And I want Cocu to be that manager so we don’t have to change again. But then I see him tinker; I see him play Forsyth at CH when we have Wisdom who played a season at Salzburg at CH and won the League. Forsyth’s distribution at CH isn’t good enough but he keeps being played. I saw us improve no end beating Preston at home and should’ve beaten Forest away but for profligate finishing under the diamond which made us look tidy and comfortable and which suits Martin and Lawrence which Cocu then unfathomably abandons. He refused to play Shinnie believing him not to be good enough yet Shinnie improved us 60% when he finally got a game because Cocu had no other options. But mostly I see a defensive, anti-football set up that I don’t recognise as football and I see a jumble of a game plan and a team with a League position which is rapidly getting worse. 
Then I hear Cocu explain and talk about a myriad things that the players did not do which lost us the game. And I wonder why the players are not doing them?? The other day I saw Wigan look like a superb team against us yet they’re bottom of the League and hadn’t won for 11 games and we scraped a goal from a long throw. 
 

But look at your post. Extrapolate our current form and trajectory and compare it with your sentence. You do not believe we will be relegated ...perhaps you are in denial? Perhaps you are not sufficiently heading the evidence? Mel will already be doing a risk analysis and he will have his concerns. 
People keep saying we can’t keep sacking managers which I totally agree with but neither can we afford relegation and week after week abject performances or if you believe Cocu performances that he was proud of despite the 3-0 score line to a team that were Below us in the table. 

“It is desired to render football worthy of the patronage generously bestowed upon it by the public and the committee will endeavour therefore to arrange matches...to witness matches of a higher order than have hitherto been played in Derby”.  Derby Mercury, 7/5/1884.

That is the Derby Way I believe. But on the evidence of what I’ve seen,I don’t think Cocu can deliver because his style is not in the spirit of football that we know. I may be wrong but I believe I’m right. 

You’ve summarised my thoughts entirely 

can I elect u my forum voice from now on please lol

joking aside, nail on the head to the letter 

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3 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

I think that’s the thing isn’t it 

rowett had a clear way of wanting to play and selected players and recruitment accordingly 

Cameron Jerome is a smack bang average footballer but he fit what rowett wanted 

cocu has brought in 3 outfield players and 2 have contributed nothing to his system 

where that buck stops is up for discussion but in my mind it’s ultimately the manager who says yes or no when presented with transfer options by his recruitment team 

the recruitment team don’t decide who we buy or how they are then used after purchase 

that buck stops with the gaffer 

end of story 

Spot on, Rowett did not pretend to be anything other than a manager that would set his teams up not to concede, be tight and try to win by the odd goal.  Rowett knew that Wisdom, Davies, Forsyth could not pass or play like Maldini, Baresi et al.  Davies kicked and headed the ball.  Johnson broke up play and we went long.  All the players knew their role and he kept it simple.

Edited by GrimsbyRam

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24 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Easy to compare teams...however look at the team that Rowett got to and used in the Play off semi final:-

1 Carson

6 Keogh

33 Davies

3 Forsyth

14 Wisdom

44 Huddlestone

15 Johnson

8 Anya

10 Lawrence

19 Weimann

32 Jerome.

Can you honestly say that is that much different, quality wise, to what Cocu has at his disposal?  Waghorn, Martin and Marriott certainly comparable (if not better than ) with Weiman, Anya and Jerome.  He has Wisdom but chooses not to play him. He has spent £10 million on Bielek.  He allowed Carson to leave.  Even if people are a 'Cocu in' fans, it needs to be accepted that he is massively underachieving and is not getting the best out of the players.

I suspect Carson was going the moment Frank made Roos number 1.

Anyway, that Rowett team is miles better. Carson was in incredible form that season. Davies is now 2 years and serious injury later...as is Forsyth. Huddlestone and Johnson would stroll straight back into this team. Weimann would offer a lot, as would Jerome. Anya was a decent championship player. This was after Rowett had had 2 transfer windows to get what he wanted.

I don't disagree that he could get more out of these players but not a huge amount more. 

Edited by BondJovi
Missed a bit

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I wonder what the tipping point will be for both factions when they start accepting the other camps points of view - will it be if we drop into the bottom 3 or will it be when we see some semblance of a coordinated coherent style from Cocu playing to the strengths of the players he has at his disposal. 

Just seems like a game of ping pong at the moment with neither faction willing to concede an inch of ground interspersed with naked aggression and hostility from some posters who clearly cannot manage their behaviour when other posters do not accept their point of view 

Interesting times 

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5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Just seems like a game of ping pong at the moment with neither faction willing to concede an inch of ground interspersed with naked aggression and hostility from some posters who clearly cannot manage their behaviour when other posters do not accept their point of view

😂 it's only a fans forum, hardly trench warfare.

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3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I wonder what the tipping point will be for both factions when they start accepting the other camps points of view - will it be if we drop into the bottom 3 or will it be when we see some semblance of a coordinated coherent style from Cocu playing to the strengths of the players he has at his disposal. 

Just seems like a game of ping pong at the moment with neither faction willing to concede an inch of ground interspersed with naked aggression and hostility from some posters who clearly cannot manage their behaviour when other posters do not accept their point of view 

Interesting times 

The Club’s executive will already have thought through their marker; There is an imminent transfer window, Rooney to start playing and I suspect certain games ear-marked that if we win will be indicators of improvement. However, if we see a continued downwards spiral there will be a serious review probably around end January-early Feb.  The new investor will bring an added voice and viewpoint which may be decisive. 

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Just now, Carnero said:

😂 it's only a fans forum, hardly trench warfare.

Maybe my choice of adjectives were a bit unfortunate

But it does seem like warfare sometimes with some posters who are to be fair not in the asedency on here and the majority of other posters know how to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner.

I guess that's why the Ignore button exists before you mention it 🙂

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6 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I wonder what the tipping point will be for both factions when they start accepting the other camps points of view - will it be if we drop into the bottom 3 or will it be when we see some semblance of a coordinated coherent style from Cocu playing to the strengths of the players he has at his disposal. 

Just seems like a game of ping pong at the moment with neither faction willing to concede an inch of ground interspersed with naked aggression and hostility from some posters who clearly cannot manage their behaviour when other posters do not accept their point of view 

Interesting times 

Breaking my rule in not posting...... this faction thing is a load of nonsense. It’s like with everything nowadays. Everyone has to be put into one group or the other..... (and yes I have done this earlier in the thread and regret doing it)

I want him to stay, but I’m not happy with every decision he’s made for this club so far, but I can see what he’s trying to do with what he’s got. 

Everyone has differing opinions on the club we love. It’s for me a sad state of affairs people get lumped into one side or another, when the majority are straight down the middle, supporting the club no matter what happens.

Its not just football, it’s politics, industry, public services etc..... even in my line of work too. You’re either for or against, yes or no, in or out...... polite decision making goes out the window for boisterous rhetoric and no thought for others.
 

Consensus has made way for bitterness, point scoring and petty arguments. It’s sad for me


 

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