Total Overhaul?

[Bubbles]

I just want to see a centre back partnership of Andre Wisdom and Rob Dickie

[DRBee]

Somebody please give one piece of evidence ( just one will do ) of Cocu and his team having a positive effect this season.

Though we have been unlucky with injuries and forced absences , a decent manager ought have some  positive effect even if it is only for part of a match. His tinkering team selections, negative play and poor use of substitutes ( unless forced  generally leaving until too late ) indicate a manager who is struggling. 

 

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

2 hours ago, DRBee said:

Somebody please give one piece of evidence ( just one will do ) of Cocu and his team having a positive effect this season.

Though we have been unlucky with injuries and forced absences , a decent manager ought have some  positive effect even if it is only for part of a match. His tinkering team selections, negative play and poor use of substitutes ( unless forced  generally leaving until too late ) indicate a manager who is struggling. 

 

Preston at home particularly first half was outstanding

[Sith Happens]

2 hours ago, Squid said:

I just want to see a centre back partnership of Andre Wisdom and Rob Dickie

So you want to see Wisdom play with Dickie?

[Yani P]

His quote interested me.. 

[The players] are more united. They were proud to wear the shirt. That’s what we need to see not only today but from now on. We will see it every game. We go to Wigan with the same goal, bravery and courage to play football but with this mentality. Things will change and I have all the confidence we will get the results.

 

You can read that many ways but to me reads its only just happened.. So taken 23 games to get players proud to wear the shirt???? Surely not.. 

[G-Ram]

Its going to take time. Cocu has brought through some of the youngsters. If he can give them more game time as the season goes on then hopefully they'll have experience to be better next season 

We're massively weaker than last season 

We've lost keogh & tomori. We are now playing a left back out of position who has been out with a serious injury. I like Davies but he has been out all of last season & is another year older. At his age he isnt going to improve. I like him but he's on the decline

We miss mount & we haven't replaced wilsons goals 

We also need a goalkeeper

It going to be an unpopular opinion i feel sorry for Lawrence. We have nobody else that plays that role. Or nobody near the first team. In the past we had ward, Russell & ince. We've always had options if one wasn't doing well we could sub one. If one played poor chances were one would do decent. He's exposed to criticism because he's the only half decent player in that forward role. If we had a couple of options he wouldn't have to start every game. If he is in poor form the job is spread between a few players rather than just him

The younger players cocu has brought through look good like they have bags of potential & just need time to settle in the side. Its the experienced players that have been poor

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

3 hours ago, DRBee said:

Somebody please give one piece of evidence ( just one will do ) of Cocu and his team having a positive effect this season.

Though we have been unlucky with injuries and forced absences , a decent manager ought have some  positive effect even if it is only for part of a match. His tinkering team selections, negative play and poor use of substitutes ( unless forced  generally leaving until too late ) indicate a manager who is struggling. 

 

We normally have a colapse end of Jan beginning of Feb. With the new regime it' s beginning of December so we are ahead of the plan. Will that do ?

I tried....

[papa_lazarou]

I don't think we need a complete overhaul. The side is missing a spine and some steel. The centre back pairing is the biggest priority for me. Others have said similar to what I believe, we need 5 players minimum. 2 centre backs, a good goal keeper, a destructive, strong ball winning center midfield player and some natural pace and width with a winger, preferably 2 that can cross and beat a man. We have players in the side which are under performing massively because we have key elements missing. They are not bad players, and this is what Cocu needs to be judged on when he's brought in some players to complement what we have, remember what we lost in the summer.

Hence my previous post, root and stem...... We need a spine, and there was possibly the start of a decent midfield pairing in Bielik and Shinnie before the injuries hit.

Lawrence is a luxury and clearly has little or no confidence. He's not a player we can rely on in a dog fight. The current group of players are soft and need leadership on the field.

This is a massive job and will take time. Cocu was massively disadvantaged when he joined. I will agree and conceed, there has to be improvement after the January window regardless of what situation he joined us in. This will be the measure of the man and his coaching abilities. Time will tell, but a knee jerk sacking won't fix this problem.

 

[IslandExile]

14 minutes ago, papa_lazarou said:

strong ball winning center midfield player

Do you not see Bielik in that role?

Or do you mean as a backup or as a two?

[papa_lazarou]

1 minute ago, IslandExile said:

Do you not see Bielik in that role?

Or do you mean as a backup or as a two?

Beilik for me isn't destructive enough (but that may come in time), just my opinion. I see him as a deep lying play maker who can tackle and provide cover across the back, he also isn't seasoned/experienced and is prone to mistakes. This is a role that I think we have needed for many years.

What i'd like to see is a new younger version of a Eustace type midfielder, and we need this now! Along with the two centrebacks who also need to be mobile and can pass unlike what we are currently deploying.

I wait with great anticipation as to what we manage to pull of in the January window. It will be sink or swim I think.

 

 

 

[Mucker1884]

10 hours ago, Sparkle said:

Lawrence definitely isn’t a winger he is one of those modern day fancy dan players who think they can have all the nice bits 

( when did he cross to a team mate in the penalty box from the chalk line... 

Last time he tried it, the ball went nowhere near said team mate, and the ball ended up going straight in the net!  He's been too embarrassed to try it again, since!  ?

[Ramslaar]

9 hours ago, Ellafella said:

I disagree and think we just need tweaks. We certainly have the players who are more than capable of being in the top 6. There are though bigger issues below the surface: the big question for me is whether the players as a group have “bought in” to Cocu’s style and philosophy. Their body language tells me that they don’t believe in him. It will be fascinating to see the level of impact that Rooney’s presence has on the team. Will he make a palpable difference?  It will certainly be a litmus test of his leadership potential. I personally think that there will be some impact but insufficient to turn things around. I also dislike Cocu’s defensive “stay in the game” mentality where he worries too much about the opposition. I also wonder about a supporting coaching staff of 6 and if there are too many cooks giving mixed messages; It’s all over-cerebralised, overly-complex, football-on-a-whiteboard type stuff.  I suspect there are 2 main outcome scenarios:

1. Cocu and his supporting cast of 6 will stay and gradually bring in his own players; but in 2 season’s time we will still be at best mid-table. 
 

2. The Club will call “time” on Cocu et al as 32 Red don’t want to be associated with a degenerating shift and Pride Park stadium being a half-empty husk of a football ground. 
 

Cocu et al need to show some form of forward promise and quick. I personally don’t like his anti-football approach and at present will not be renewing my or my son’s season tickets next season. The quality of football isn’t good enough and life is too short waiting for Godot. Sorry Phillip. 

Personally i go to support Derby county not the manager.i will get a season ticket for as long as i financially can who ever is in charge.i understand its a big cost to alot of people and they want to be entertained for there money but supporting Derby is bigger than that.

[Bubbles]

 

3 hours ago, Paul71 said:

So you want to see Wisdom play with Dickie?

yes. would love to see Dickie.

oh wait...

[Wignall12]

5 hours ago, DRBee said:

Somebody please give one piece of evidence ( just one will do ) of Cocu and his team having a positive effect this season.

Though we have been unlucky with injuries and forced absences , a decent manager ought have some  positive effect even if it is only for part of a match. His tinkering team selections, negative play and poor use of substitutes ( unless forced  generally leaving until too late ) indicate a manager who is struggling. 

 

Fergie struggled with his Man ure squad until a Match against Florist ........what happened after that ? .......had they sacked him they would not have gone on to achieve what they did. Sometimes you have to throw the dice and trust in the outcome. 

[Ellafella]

1 hour ago, Ramslaar said:

Personally i go to support Derby county not the manager.i will get a season ticket for as long as i financially can who ever is in charge.i understand its a big cost to alot of people and they want to be entertained for there money but supporting Derby is bigger than that.

Well done. I’ve been watching Derby live for 43 years. I’ll be at Wigan Boxing Day and Pride Park on Jan 2nd. As you get older and wiser you realise that sentimentality costs time and money and both are in decreasing amounts. I suspect you’ll come to feel the same one day. 

[Ellafella]

9 hours ago, IslandExile said:

I did see Allardyce play (League cup SF). I've been watching Derby since the 70s but mostly rely on TV these days and watch all those available on Sky or RamsTV. Last game I went to was Hull away this season. Hopefully that answers any "snide" comments you're insinuating about me not watching them.

I am all in favour of Cocu. And I believe he will deliver the football we all want to see - if given chance.

As I've just said, I wasn't arguing in favour of Allardyce. I was merely saying that even he recognizes the importannce of player recruitment and it's not simply down to coaching and management. That's the only reason I mentioned him. 

And my original point was that there is no where near enough talent in this squad to make the top six. With much more talent last season, we only just made it. As I asked, were you unhappy with Lampard aswell?

Read my answer again; I asked if you’d seen Allardyce play not Derby. And my question was a genuine one not actually a snide comment which I don’t do. Lampard? He was hit and miss; he’ll learn from his mistakes and be successful but there were some awful performances last season from top players like Mount et al so it’s not all about recruitment which is my point.

I disagree with your assessment though. Square pegs in round holes, unnecessary tinkering, not knowing his strongest team when 20,000 Derby fans do know, and a seeming inability to explain what he’s trying to do as evidenced by consistent chaos on the pitch and school boy mistakes for me illustrate a team who don’t understand what the coach wants. I put that down to the manager and his 6 coaches not the players. For me the manager carries the can. If I’m wrong I’ll let you know next season and say you were right all along but I don’t think I’ll have to...

[BondJovi]

9 hours ago, Ellafella said:

If you’re confused have a little more of a think about it. The point is very clear. 
And your little snide swipe about liking Allardyce is neither warranted nor accurate. As a player he was very agricultural - did you ever see him play? Derby actually tried to sign him once. And his demise as England manager sums him up as a character; I’d have nothing to do with him and never have thought him worthy of the time of day. Interesting that you quote him though. 
There’s enough talent in the Derby squad currently to be top 6. No question. The players just don’t feel good under this regime. That’s my point which you skewed into a more general point about the importance of talent. Love your avatar by the way. Happy Christmas. See you at Wigan Boxing Day.  

There is no way that this squad is capable of top 6. It is a shadow of the quality we have had in recent seasons. 

This season is the culmination of 5 years of falling short. I could understand fans thinking this squad should be capable if they had been together a while. But they haven't. Our current back 5 had never played together before this season. Who in this squad is of genuine quality? I don't see anyone demanding Cocu out give an answer to that question. I have seen a lot of Forests games this season and I can't think of player in our team who would improve theirs. Yet I would take plenty of their players.

I honestly believe the job at this club right now is the biggest since Nigel trying to sort out the Davies/ Jewell mess. It took him years to get us into a position where we could even enjoy a season beyond March. 

The club has not had joined up thinking. Managerial appointments have had zero continuity and none have been given or stayed long enough to actually cement an identity.

I find it somewhat sad that so many are starting to hit the panic buttons when only 5 months into a long term plan. No fans out there are blind to the poor results and some poor performances. I also believe that a lot of the problems are that people haven't warmed to Cocu. But the players are playing for him, Reading is proof of that, we just desperately lack quality and footballing brains.

We need at least..

New Gk, new CB, 2 wingers, striker. 

[IslandExile]

1 minute ago, Ellafella said:

Read my answer again; I asked if you’d seen Allardyce play not Derby.

And I told you: 

"I did see Allardyce play (League cup SF)."

but you also seemed to insinuate that I hadn't seen Derby play. Apologies if I misinterpreted that.

You say 20,000 fans know which team Cocu should play. Not according to match day threads before kick off. I grant you that there may be more harmony post match (eg Lowe not Malone ?).

Injuries are not helping but, in any case, this season, whether people like it or not, was all about the rebuild - that's been necessary for a quite a while - and it is finally underway.

We will not get relegated so League position doesn't matter this year.

Let Rooney start, let's try and get a few players in and let the injured return. Things will pick up. Ideally though, give Cocu the summer to shape his team. This is a big task and will take time.

[IslandExile]

1 hour ago, IslandExile said:

I did see Allardyce play (League cup SF).

Sorry it was the quarter final, December 76, lost 1-2 at home. Charlie George penalty. I have a feeling Allardyce may have actually scored with a header from a corner (yeah even then) but I cannot confirm that. 11v11 don't mention the Bolton lineup or scorers.

Anyhow, sorry for going off at a tangent.

[IslandExile]

Back on thread....

In order to bring players in, we need to shift some of the deadwood out. That's not easy in January. Other clubs have got to want them and sadly that probably only applies to Bogle and Marriott.

There may be a riot on here but the summer window, when a few more contracts expire, might be the busier window for us.

Unless the investment does materialise and we can buy now, knowing players will leave later in the year.

Buy now, (financial fair) p(l)ay later.