Alph Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 4 hours ago, rammieib said: But we do need an immediate change in tactics/attitude. Every single game now, especially away games are adding 1-2% into the 'Cocu out' account. Yeah it's hard going. Not impressed so far but I think he walked into a poor team and poor preparation. He's not done much to improve things. But I think I'd rather see him confirm he's no good than get rid because it looks like he might not be. And hopefully he'll fail to confirm he's useless and be one of those "look what happens when you give them time" examples for future trigger happy fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Have recent performances really been that bad? We deserved something against Hull, played well. Again against Forest, probably the better team. Excellent against Preston, best first half in years. We may have lost to Fulham but I don't think we were too bad considering the gulf in quality. We had chances in those games and at important points of the match. Scoring more against Preston would have been a confidence boost. QPR and Blackburn have been poor. I also see that Bielik is carrying an injury, which causes pain but he can play. He is our midfield and if not fully fit we are screwed. We currently have a big problem, our midfield is non existent and our attacking players are all out of form. I have watched Grabban feed on scraps for Forest but he takes those chances. Right now I don't believe if a chance fell to one of our players I would have confidence in them scoring. We aren't creating enough for them to have the liberty to miss a few due to our midfield. All that Infront of a rusty defence. Can Cocu afford to expose that defence? Hamer, Wisdom, Davies, Forsyth? Worst we have had in a long time. I am disappointed we switched from Martin and Marriott. And I believe we have to be more attacking but can our confidence take the risk of another heavy away defeat? Stick with it, back the team at home as there is huge pressure to get the points there now and ride it out until January and see what happens there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldstar Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 35 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: Exactly... people calling for continuity in managers are the same as those calling for a consistent attacking philosophy. You’re not gonna get the latter if the former is Cocu. We need the latter. We don’t need the former. Set up a proper philosophy throughout the club (for the love of god get a DOF!) and we won’t need to worry about changing managers, because the approach will remain the same, and the players will still suit. It’s not the sacking of managers that’s been our problem in recent years, it’s getting the wrong ones in the first place. Giving the wrong man time to rebuild the team will set us back long term, not progress us. Unless Cocu miraculously changes his approach, he has to go before he destroys us. Spot on. Looks like we've picked the wrong one yet again. The first sentence of your last paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about, all those calling for continuity at any cost are not seeing the damage it could wreak on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldstar Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, BondJovi said: Have recent performances really been that bad? Not even counting away performances, I am yet to come away from a match regardless of the result and be satisfied with the whole 90 minutes. We haven't yet put out a convincing performance for a whole match. 45 minutes maybe but 90? Nope. And that's concerning in December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted December 8, 2019 Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: Any reason for the lack of comment on players that have got better under Cocu's coaching? Dunno if it's aimed at me but.... So few of last year's team are actually still around but, of those that are, there are also other mitigating circumstances behind their poor form this season. Roos - confidence hit by playoff final and fans' shameful reaction each game. Bogle - several people have said that he's not fully over his injury. Malone - about the same. Holmes - about the same. Jo-Flo - about the same. Lawrence - about the same. Still inconsistent but better when played centrally. Marriott & Waghorn - not so good but possibly something going on in the background for each of them. Remember, Lampard left Marriott out a lot to everyone's bemusement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, IslandExile said: Dunno if it's aimed at me but.... So few of last year's team are actually still around but, of those that are, there are also other mitigating circumstances behind their poor form this season. Roos - confidence hit by playoff final and fans' shameful reaction each game. Bogle - several people have said that he's not fully over his injury. Malone - about the same. Holmes - about the same. Jo-Flo - about the same. Lawrence - about the same. Still inconsistent but better when played centrally. Marriott & Waghorn - not so good but possibly something going on in the background for each of them. Remember, Lampard left Marriott out a lot to everyone's bemusement. Wasn't, but fair play anyway. I have to say, that's a hell of a lot of excuses. As if Lampard didn't have injuries, and people returning from injuries, or any other coach for that matter. I think that's the most criminal thing so far. A world renowned coach that can't improve his players through coaching? Ignoring the results. Ignoring the squad as a whole, looking at players on an individual basis. It's poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 47 minutes ago, IslandExile said: That's a fair point - and I apologise for generalising that all those wanting Cocu out would prefer a Warnock or Pullis. It's just that's how it seems sometimes.... They are the instant fix managers that are usually proposed. The other one often mentioned is Hughton. While not hoofball, like the others, he strikes me as being quite negative, certainly was in the Premier League (and before anyone mentions necessity because of the squad he had, that's a valid reason for Cocu now). So who are the attack minded managers that appeal to you? I agree, I wouldn’t want any of the perceived “instant fix” managers like Warnock or Pulis, or Hughton (though the latter never seemed that defensive to me, but fans of the clubs he’s managed say otherwise so I’ll trust them.) In terms of who I’d want, in the summer it was 1000% Jokanovic. Maybe he’d still fancy it, I don’t know. Didn’t work out in the summer for whatever reason, but it could do now. Beyond that into who’s available now, I think we probably have to be a bit imaginative. I can’t say I’ve got enough knowledge outside the top two divisions in England to name many names myself. But they’ve gotta be out there. Leeds found Bielsa. We need some sort of process of finding managers abroad, or maybe even from league one. Not easy, but other teams have done it (including us with Cocu). Those have Gotta be the places to look for me. In terms of names that I actually know, Marco Silva is out there. Think more was happening at Everton than we could see that made things go wrong there. Javi Gracia was well regraded by Watford fans I know. But I think the best option could be a little less well known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted December 8, 2019 Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Andicis said: Wasn't, but fair play anyway. I have to say, that's a hell of a lot of excuses. As if Lampard didn't have injuries, and people returning from injuries, or any other coach for that matter. I think that's the most criminal thing so far. A world renowned coach that can't improve his players through coaching? Ignoring the results. Ignoring the squad as a whole, looking at players on an individual basis. It's poor. Please don't forget that there were some shocking performances under Lampard and a lot of folks on here were arguing that we should not have appointed someone with so little experience. Thanks to the three loans, Keogh, Huddlestone and Johnson, we also had a far better squad last year than this - and, yet we only just scraped into sixth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 44 minutes ago, The Orange Pimpernel said: Its all about opinions. I don't agree with you but we will see. Remember our views, yours or mine, aren't facts. Of course, would never suggest otherwise. Anything on here is my opinion. As I say, I can understand people may have different expectations this season, and as thus may think Cocu is doing a better job than I do. I just feel some reasons given seem a bit contradictory to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 46 minutes ago, Owd miner said: Well said owd lad... buts let not also forget that sum of the football served up by lampard wa shocking as well. Indeed.... and at times I wasn’t happy with Lampard either. But I don’t think we ever went as defensive as this. And that’s the big thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 minute ago, IslandExile said: Please don't forget that there were some shocking performances under Lampard and a lot of folks on here were arguing that we should not have appointed someone with so little experience. Thanks to the three loans, Keogh, Huddlestone and Johnson, we also had a far better squad last year than this - and, yet we only just scraped into sixth. But I'm not talking about performances as a whole. Individual players have either not improved at all, or regressed. Lampard at least had the excuse of being inexperienced for when he made mistakes, Cocu isn't an inexperienced manager. When he came in, we were told he would coach what we had and turn them into better players. That simply hasn't happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 14 minutes ago, goldstar said: Spot on. Looks like we've picked the wrong one yet again. The first sentence of your last paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about, all those calling for continuity at any cost are not seeing the damage it could wreak on us. What would continuity under Pearson have done? It’s a dangerous game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted December 8, 2019 Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 9 minutes ago, Andicis said: Individual players have either not improved at all, or regressed. In my earlier post, I tried to say that there were so few players that are still around that played often last year. I don't think any of those have regressed - not because of Cocu at any rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edtheram Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Out. Our good players are now average, our average players are now awful and the age of the team has increased. The away form speaks for itself, were shocking and apart from Preston and boro at home I can’t remember us playing too well. Transition season I think not, we signed Bielik for 8 million and have new investment coming. I don’t trust Cocu to be the one to bring the players we need in. were going back as a club and need improvement I can’t see Cocu doing that imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted December 8, 2019 Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, Edtheram said: Transition season I think not, we signed Bielik for 8 million and have new investment coming. I don’t trust Cocu to be the one to bring the players we need in. Most people believe 21 year old Bielik will become an excellent player for the club. He's been held back so far by injuries and having to fill in at the back. One new player doesn't complete the squad. We need lots more quality players; Bielik was merely the start. Cocu - or whoever you prefer - would need at least two more transfer windows in order to assemble a squad capable of challenging. All we have left is a mish mash of players left over from previous management changes without the quality that we've had in the past. People don't like it but, of course, it's a transition season. And what has Cocu done to mean that you don't trust him to bring in the players we need???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 21 minutes ago, goldstar said: Not even counting away performances, I am yet to come away from a match regardless of the result and be satisfied with the whole 90 minutes. We haven't yet put out a convincing performance for a whole match. 45 minutes maybe but 90? Nope. And that's concerning in December. I agree it is, but how different is that to last season? Or the season before? A dominant 90 is not something I have associated with this club for a while! Maybe, and this is a big maybe, all our abject performances are happening now and not sat waiting for us in February/March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 If the aim isn't to play in the manner as we did against Boro & Preston at home then we would never have played like we did against Boro & Preston at home, not even for a minute. Occasionally people will ask me whether I'm a Derby fan and quite a lot of the time I'll say no, I'm bloody not! Sometimes I even hate them, constantly letting me down! If they ask me whether I'm a Derby supporter they'll get a different answer. One of the main points of being a 'supporter' is that you give the team / manager / whoever the benefit of the doubt until it's simply not possible to do so. If people have already reached the stage where they feel it's impossible to do that, especially when considering all of the poo that's been thrown at any plans we had made (which I'll refrain from calling 'our best-laid plans' because of the disastrous pre-season) then I have to seriously question their character. Cowards! The chopping and changing is annoying, but you've got to trust, believe or at least hope that it's being done for a reason. You can call it blind faith if you want (it isn't) but I'd rather than than the absolute misery some people are, jumping on every negative and criticising the club, player, manager, chairman at any opportunity that presents itself. The benefits of work being put into something won't always be immediately apparent and only reveal themselves at a later date (see our Academy progress). Sometimes the reverse is true in that someone can have an immediate effect, a honeymoon period that doesn't hold up to longer term scrutiny (see countless boosts from caretaker manager appointments and calls to give him the job, the club giving him the job and then having to sack him 6 months later). ..and in my usual fashion, that's as much as I can be arsed to write. Soooooo bored of this whole discussion. Roll on (and roll over) Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Just now, IslandExile said: Most people believe 21 year old Bielik will become an excellent player for the club. He's been held back so far by injuries and having to fill in at the back. One new player doesn't complete the squad. We need lots more quality players; Bielik was merely the start. Cocu - or whoever would - need at least two more transfer windows in order to assemble a squad capable of challenging. All we have left is a mish mash of players left over from previous management changes without the quality that we've had in the past. People don't like it but, of course, it's a transition season. I fear you are fighting a losing battle. 8 million Bielik can do the job of the 7 regular players no longer with us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainram Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Stick with him.... if by some miracle we achieved promotion this year, I shudder to think of the carnage we would witness in the premiership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsnip Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 In all seriousness, of course Cocu in. It would be an absolutely shocking state of affairs if he wasn't given the opportunity to make a couple of changes in January and see what he can do. I'd happily give him another 12 months. If we're still crap in 12 months then he can pack up all his twans and his sheepers and clog off back to the land of nether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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